WE the people, in search of a more perfect V10...


Alf Hanna wrote on 12/29/2011, 9:50 AM
I'd love to see it happen, but don't bet on it. I'm not making excuses for them but here's some info to consider:

In most software companies, and especially smaller ones (which I consider the Vegas team to be), the lead programmers are off on the next version long before it's released. They hand over 'maintenance' of the previous supported version usually to more 'junior' members of the team, and often it's only for the most grevious of security related issues. That MSFT offers upgrades to XP is irrelevant, since the amount of profit generated from the millions of licenses more than makes this worth while, and the major corporations pay dearly for support contracts on this. How many of us have paid Sony for a support contract? I don't even know if I can buy one! And to be clear, MSFT is only offering security fixes to XP, and that has been the way for over a couple of years. SP3 was the last actual bug fix for features, if I remember right, and that was, what 4 years ago???

The goal is always to push the user to the latest release, as, in addition to new features, there is a higher likelihood that smaller bugs are also fixed. Then you add that with every bug fix, you may create more bugs, so regression testing of the software is needed, and, if the testing lab is small, and the budget is tight, they likely are reformatting the existing test beds for the new version.

None of this excuses Sony, but given the level of technical support I hear from many of you that have tried calling Sony to address these, I doubt we will be successful in getting them to deal with this.

But yes, I think that Sony ought to do a much better job of bug fixing, and while we are at it, technical support in general. Those of us who are making a living at this and relying on their *professional* level products (price, features), need to continue to demand this kind of support. I don't want to be forced to change versions in the middle of a project to cope with my personal bug list, since I can't assume it won't destabilize my machine even more. My time is too valuable, and I do my best to test new versions on my laptop before ghosting and upgrading.

Perhaps a meeting with them at the next major NAB show as a group? I intend to go there if at all possible and discuss it with them. (nicely of course!)
PeterDuke wrote on 12/29/2011, 5:46 PM
Nobody has said it yet so I will be the nitpicker. There are no degrees of perfection, so nothing can be "more perfect". We could, however, ask for a better V10, a much better V10, a close to perfect V10 or even a perfect V10.
i am erikd wrote on 12/29/2011, 11:44 PM
Peter, really?? The words are from the Preamble to the Constitution. We certainly didn't have nor ever will have a "perfect union" so the simple analogy stands just fine. No need to nitpick.
ChristoC wrote on 12/29/2011, 11:59 PM

Sure there are degrees of perfection, however Vegas is marketed as a Video Editor; therefore it's reasonable to expect that it at least perform the basic and fundamental task of retaining the correct clips in the correct order. All the other stuff is just fluff if it can't do that.
PeterDuke wrote on 12/30/2011, 12:33 AM

I recognized the "we the people" bit but not the "more perfect" bit from my brief tour of Philadelphia and other parts of the US in 2006.

Did Jefferson write that? Tut, tut. Or was it Hemmingway? ("The best way is always to stop when you are going good" instead of "going well".)

Feel free to pick me up on some slip next time. (Stones and glass houses, you know)

(signed) Contrite Ozzy
farss wrote on 12/30/2011, 2:50 AM
"Vegas is marketed as a Video Editor; therefore it's reasonable to expect that it at least perform the basic and fundamental task of retaining the correct clips in the correct order. "

Indeed and this is what seems not to be understood by those making excuses.
This problem goes back to Vegas 8, they have had years to diagnose the problem or at least do something about it e.g.. code to trap and correct the problem.

Sure Microsoft only issue security fixes for past OS's. This is not a minor problem though, this was in some contexts a show stopper. Not much different to an operating system making random changes to files. I'm certain if Microsoft ever had such a bug in their code everything else would stop until it was fixed. Even a small software house would do the same.

NickHope wrote on 12/30/2011, 3:23 AM
I never had this problem in V8, and I absolutely hammered that version day after day, with tons of copying and pasting. Bob, did you get this problem in V8, or did you read of others getting it? Apart from you, I remember only seen posts from people who got it in V9 and V10.
farss wrote on 12/30/2011, 4:42 AM
"Bob, did you get this problem in V8, or did you read of others getting it? Apart from you, I remember only seen posts from people who got it in V9 and V10. "

That's a good question because when 9 first came out I was switching around between 8 and 9 a fair bit so my recollection could be wrong.

JHendrix wrote on 12/30/2011, 5:48 AM
bump for no more bloatware and fixing bugs 1st
i am erikd wrote on 12/30/2011, 6:30 AM
I can confirm that it has happened in V8. It is a bug that is in V8, V9 and V10. I thought it was more than reasonable on my part to only request that V10 be repaired. Really, V9e should be too since that was the last stable release from Vegas but I won't ask for too much in hopes that they are willing to give a little.

Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/30/2011, 6:56 AM

I saw this in a business I visited yesterday:

"If we don’t take care of our customers, someone else will."

In my case, somebody else has.

cbrillow wrote on 12/30/2011, 7:06 AM
I offer a response to a couple of different areas:

With respect to the dropped support for Windows XP, it was going to happen at some point, and Sony apparently decided that the reasons were now compelling to do that. I can accept that, despite the fact that it's going to require me to build a new machine in order to transition to Vegas 11.

I also understand, but don't fully appreciate, the fact that the release of a new major software version often signifies the cessation of work on the previous version. This is something that also has to happen at some point, given the reality of corporate resource allocation.

My feeling is that acknowledged bugs - those that SCS recognizes as repeatable, affecting a significant percentage of users and have been targeted for fixing - should be corrected before the next major release is officially announced. At that point, perhaps, they could argue that it's reasonable to stop work on current released version. To do anything less is a disservice to the customer base who paid for a product that doesn't work as-advertised.

There will always be bugs, and new, obscure problems may arise at any time, even after a product is retired. There are problems that only affect a small number of users or particular hardware combinations. It's not reasonable to expect those to be fixed. It's another situation entirely to just abandon a trouble-ridden version and expect the customer base to continue on the upgrade treadmill.
JJKizak wrote on 12/30/2011, 7:15 AM
If Windows 7 can do it why can't Sony/Vegas? How many computers were junked because of upgrading to Windows 7? Not rying to be sarcastic.
Chienworks wrote on 12/30/2011, 8:13 AM
Peter, the actual words are:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

So yes, "more perfect" is in there. It was written by Congress so it's a joint work, but i'm sure Jefferson had a big part of it.

US Constitution
Julius_ wrote on 12/30/2011, 2:47 PM
I've been using Vegas since V4 and it was rock solid till V9.
V10 and V11 are very buggy and I've seen to many weird crashes.
For now I'm sticking with V9, and if Sony doesn't clean up their act soon, I'll go else where.

US Constitution? Is that still around?
National Defense Authorization Act anyone?
cbrillow wrote on 12/30/2011, 6:00 PM

No sarcasm taken. However, I honestly don't know what you mean with this Windows 7 reference.

About the only comment I can make based upon my lack of understanding of your question is, I'll aver that there's at least a wee bit more in terms of programming and financial resources at Microsoft to throw around than at SCS.
winrockpost wrote on 12/30/2011, 6:40 PM
Jay great post

"If we don’t take care of our customers, someone else will."

In my case, somebody else has.

ditto, but still hoping they get their shit together

JJKizak wrote on 12/31/2011, 7:01 AM
What I was getting at was Vegas 11 eliminated XP. And older Windows XP motherboards will not work with Windows 7. If Windows 7 doesn't like your old hardware you have to go back to XP.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/31/2011, 8:04 AM

Agreed, Dave. I had high hopes with 11, but...

cbrillow wrote on 12/31/2011, 10:21 AM

Thanks for the explanation, sorry I didn't understand the original point, as-stated.

From my point-of-view, I wouldn't attempt the XP to Windows 7 on old hardware, anyway. At least, not without running the Upgrade Advisor beforehand.

Just so happens that I'm in that conundrum right now. Bought Vegas 11, bought a copy of Win 7 Pro 64-bit. Now need a motherboard, CPU & *just the right* graphics card to make the upgrade worthwhile. Unfortunately for several of us, the consensus isn't yet in on graphics cards that work best with GPU acceleration. Not in the price range I can afford, anyaway.
i am erikd wrote on 1/5/2012, 1:33 AM
I really don't intend to let this die without at least a response from the forum administrator. We really do DESERVE an answer of some kind. Really? You are just going to ignore us?

Soniclight wrote on 1/5/2012, 3:23 AM
Another + 1 here. I'm all for it and here is why -- my one core issue that is not just mine and I recently had a thread on it here.

Below is what I submitted to SCS on 12-31-2011 -- in which I did mention the possibility of a 10f or an alternative (at least a patch) for the issue I brought up. Though I'd of course wish all other issues of concern to my fellow editors be addressed also.

So maybe a patch for all such issues would be easier for SCS to create and deliver than create an entire new versio of VP10 Or not. I'm not a coder.

Whatever will actually work.

Radio Guy wrote on 1/5/2012, 10:28 AM
+1 for a perfect 10 Please
robwood wrote on 1/5/2012, 11:56 AM
+1 here too... still using v10a.