WE the people, in search of a more perfect V10...


Soniclight wrote on 1/5/2012, 4:53 PM
P.S. to my above posting:

Since I have the above mentioned active albeit not-yet-responded-to ticket with SCS, I'm going to amend it with a link to this thread.
However realistic or unrealistic our hopes here, it certainly can't hurt bringing it to their attention that way too.

Later Edit: Done. Here is what I added to my ticket:

ChristoC wrote on 1/5/2012, 5:14 PM
Philip, I appreciate your desire to get some fix for your problem, however the original post was "to officially request Sony for a 10f release for the specific purpose of fixing the "replaced footage" bug", which is a "Workstation 1.01" issue which renders VegasPro10 unfit for purpose.
Soniclight wrote on 1/5/2012, 5:36 PM

And/but why limit fixes to just one issue?

Besides, the thread evolved into a more general fix-Vegas one also.

My point is about helping as many fellow users as possible with as many issues IMO. My keyframes issue is just one of them. IF they're going to consider and build a 10f, it should be a comprehensive, not just one-issue fix. The more info and feedback we give, the better the chances for that. Again, IMO.
winrockpost wrote on 1/5/2012, 7:07 PM
Those who voiced their negative thoughts when sony bought vegas,,
I considered ridiculous morons..
.I now consider them much brighter than me. Its been a slow down hill fall rapidly turning into an avalanche.
Soniclight wrote on 1/5/2012, 7:43 PM
".... Those who voiced their negative thoughts
Well, now that was a long, long time ago - lol.

As per Wiki page: "Sony Vegas is a video editing software package for non-linear editing systems (NLE) originally published by Sonic Foundry, now owned and run by Sony Creative Software. Originally developed as an audio editor, it eventually developed into an NLE for video and audio from version 2.0... "

And while I can't verify this info on that page under "Awards"...

"Vegas has won awards because of major broadcasters who have utilized the software, including Nightline with Ted Koppel.[3] Several film festival winners have used Vegas to cut their features.[4] Vegas has been used by engineers and artists as diverse as the 5.1 surround mix for Yes, as well as recordings by Shania Twain, Rod Stewart, and Quiet Riot and music video/live recordings for Sheryl Crow. Vegas is also popular for documentary video production and mobile news reporting because of its ability to run on moderately powered computer systems."

So it's not been on some Armageddon decline since Sony bought it.
BUT the last couple versions do seem to have some sloppy (rush to market?) coding.
That's not good for anyone, Sony included.
ushere wrote on 1/5/2012, 11:36 PM
unfortunately it's the way of the world (market). scs HAVE to keep selling a product (otherwise they'd go out of business). the only way to sell an existing product is to give that product something more....

so, rather than give us a robust, reliable, bullet-proof (add your own expletive) nle - the holy grail of the editing world, scs has gone the more marketable root of value adding - 3d, cuda, ofx, etc.,

no one is going to argue that these additions don't have a 'high' marketing value, or that they are / were needed (ok. 3d certainly wasn't needed by me!), but in the rush to sell according to a business cycle, a lot of what really matters appears to have been thrown out, overlooked, or simply not fixed.

scs has done themselves no favours by following this course of marketing, in fact there's every possibility they have alienated a good many existing customers, many of whose loyalty has simply been whittled away by bugs that should never have made it to, let alone, past the beta testers.

i shall not be jumping ship (though edius does look inviting), but i doubt i'll be upgrading to any future release with the enthusiasm i've had for previous versions...
Soniclight wrote on 1/6/2012, 12:35 AM
"...scs has done themselves no favours by following this course of marketing, in fact there's every possibility they have alienated a good many existing customers, many of whose loyalty has simply been whittled away by bugs that should never have made it to, let alone, past the beta testers."

I couldn't agree more, unfortunately. That's what I meant by "sloppy coding."

I had vaguely heard of Edius and upon your mentioning it, went to check it out. From what I can tell it is rather similar to Vegas in many respects, and wow... what a nice, clean, user-friendly interface too. The dark GUI (much easier on the eyes) was something Vegas didn't implement until way behind all other NLE's on this. Never understood that.

I likewise won't jump ship in part because I simply can't afford it since I live on a fixed medical/disability income -- unless Edius offers a cross-platform deal (that's how I went from Logic to Cubase ten years ago and it was a really blessing -- like it so much more).***

But even so, I'd have to download and study Edius seriously before making such a jump. I do like the one-in-all uniqueness of Vegas and were it not for said seeming sloppiness to keep up with the market (which as you pointed out is in part based on nothing of real value), I'd still be a ra-ra-ra vocal fan. Now I'm just loyal. For now.

If SCS does end up reading this thread and others reflecting the very imperfect state of Vegas, I hope they take notice that most of us want to give them the benefit of the doubt to fix/improve/tighten the product. But patience isn't an infinite resource either.


*** Later edit: Oooops, I should not have mentioned cross-platform offer. I just saw one at B&H for Edius 5 for $399. Too steep for me. So for now, Vegas it is.
i am erikd wrote on 1/6/2012, 12:42 AM
"i doubt i'll be upgrading to any future release with the enthusiasm i've had for previous versions..."

Yes, this is a REAL issue for Sony. Versions 8 had bugs but was basically fixed by the time the last release came out. Version 9 was solid with the glaring exception of the "replaced footage" bug. This was the first warning that there was trouble brewing at Sony. Then Sony came out with V10 which NEVER dealt with the "replaced footage" bug and introduced several other significant bugs that were never repaired. This all represents a big departure for what Sony's expectations are for Sony Vegas and these expectations are creating future problems for them now even if they aren't fully aware of it. If 11 isn't a solid version by it's last release then there will be A LARGE DROP OFF in the number of people lining up to buy Version 12. You can count on that Sony.

NickHope wrote on 1/6/2012, 12:53 AM
@Soniclight - A comprehensive bugfix to version 10 would of course be great, and I myself am also now paranoid about potential phantom keyframe problems in 10.0e, but I think the original point was that if they've really fixed the replaced-footage bug in 11, then maybe they can throw out a quick patch to 10 without using up a lot of resources. Better that than no further updates at all to 10.

@ushere - the only way to sell an existing product is to give that product something more...

That's true up to a point, but reputation is important too, and they're fools if they don't now concentrate on the reliability over the new features or it will just die off. The product's reputation is rapidly going down the toilet. I used to recommend Vegas all the time, and I believe that in the past my recommendations were responsible for several purchases, but I no longer recommend Vegas because of all the problems.
Grazie wrote on 1/6/2012, 2:21 AM
@ Leslie and Sonic: "... that should never have made it to, let alone, past the beta testers."

If you've done any BETA testing for companies, then part of that would mean those people would have had to have signed an NDA. The fact that we've not heard their responses, which I'm guessing here is what you two would dearly like to hear or at least a repost to the being blind to bugs, might have a lot to do with that same NDA.

It must be truly galling for any BETA tester to have to read these comments, knowing that their keyboards are locked to making a comment. Must be real tough being a BETA tester?

Anyway, I'm sure SCS are working 24/7 to get a next release outta the door. Presently I'm needing to finish 2 major pieces of work that I'm concluding in VP10 32/64.

Cheers guys


ushere wrote on 1/6/2012, 5:04 AM
grazie you're spot on with that observation - but who else can we vent at?

i mean today i've had constant crashing using colour correct and curves. everything else is hunky-dory, but as soon as i put curves and colour correction, POW, vegas freezes to white screen*.

fortunately this job isn't terribly important, and i still have 10 on my pc (which does cc / curves without problem).

i can't find the original thread about this problem, but i can tell you one thing, if so many people are experiencing this it can only mean either there's not enough beta testers doing what needs to be done in the way of testing, or they have perfect set-ups, and if the latter, then maybe scs should just simply state hardware requirements GUARANTEED to run vegas stably...

hopefully this will be sorted soon because my next project DOES require serious cc'ing.

i'm dl'ing the edius demo right now....

*ok, cold booted and tried cc'ing again. all went well till my 8th event. white out. as grazie would say, grrrrr
jimsch wrote on 1/6/2012, 7:11 AM
Just noticed something

DVDA 5.0 - A new build(157) was released in Dec 2011 even though DVDA5.2 has been out for some time.
From the release notes: Notable changes in version 5.0 (Build 157)
Fixed a bug that could cause audio synchronization problems on Blu-ray Disc projects when using some MPEG-2 source media.

Maybe a build for 10 to fix media switching is not out of the question once they know they have it fixed.
vkmast wrote on 1/6/2012, 7:19 AM
that 5.0 build 157 is an update for the DVDA STUDIO product line, not a DVDA Pro old version update.
Soniclight wrote on 1/6/2012, 5:12 PM
"It must be truly galling for any BETA tester to have to read these comments, knowing that their keyboards are locked to making a comment. Must be real tough being a BETA tester?"

On one hand, I understand the legal reasons for this from a corporate standpoint.
On the other I totally concur on your observation, Grazie.

Beta testers are essentially free tech-labor for corporations -- that IF listened to save the reputation of an application.
That they can't contribute to threads like this is sad, they could bring some insights.

Not having been a Beta tester myself so far, I assume that the NDA applies to everything and everywhere.
She or he can't even mention Vegas beta testing during pillow-talk to a lover... **

** Who would so such a weird thing, eh? Well, ya just never know.
Chienworks wrote on 1/6/2012, 5:22 PM
I'm sure the beta testers aren't being silent at all. You just can't read the comments they're sending back to the developers.
Soniclight wrote on 1/6/2012, 6:51 PM
True, Chienworks. But there is a certain added power to when things are voiced in public by consumers.

Case in point:

The whole debit card monthly fee debacle in the U.S. last year.

Bank of America and others may have had internal polls or data clearly showing that consumers would balk, but figured,"Yeah, whatever..." But once it hit the media and the "99%"-esque/people-power factor took over, all the banks back-tracked and tanked the idea. And surprisingly fast at that.

Sure, event/footage replacement, phantom keyframes and other bugs are way more nerdy and limited-audience and seemingly not that important.
But not for those using the software, be it as a means to make a living (and meet deadlines) or as a serious passion-hobby.
NickHope wrote on 1/7/2012, 7:05 AM
Just bitten by the "replaced footage" bug for the 2nd time (Vegas 10.0e). I haven't had multiple instances open recently so I don't believe this time that is the cause. I can't work with this hanging over me all the time so I think I'm going to have to go back to Vegas 8.0c once this project's done.
JJKizak wrote on 1/7/2012, 7:19 AM
Maybe they should use high school kids for Beta testers. They are not afraid to push things out of the box, not afraid of "limitations". Like "let's see what happens if you cross the yellow line on the highway". If I successfully drink 20 shots of whiskey wonder what happens if I drink 40?
kcw wrote on 1/7/2012, 7:46 AM

Also got hit by the replacement bug last week (10.0e) and every WMV file I make in that version of Vegas has a shorter audio track than the video on by 20-45 frames. 9.0e never did this and the audio track for WMV files matches up perfectly to the video track. No idea why WMV files from 9 and Movie Studio 10 are not affected, but this big seems to exist in both the Pro and Studio versions of 11.

If 9.0e handled AVCHD video preview better, I would never open 10.0e. Looks like it is back to proxy editing.
Chienworks wrote on 1/7/2012, 8:13 AM
I gave up on 10, still using 9 here, and successfully doing AVCHD work just fine.
MUTTLEY wrote on 1/7/2012, 12:03 PM

No doubt the replaced footage bug kicked my butt as much or more than anyone here, I can't count the number of times a few larger projects went completely out of whack and I had to jump through many a time consuming work arounds and major hoops to just get back to "even".

That said I fail to see the logic of going back to fix bugs in previous versions that will have no effect on the current release. If there are bugs in 11 that cause you to not work in it wouldn't it be better to fix those instead of going backward? 11 is already out, its done, changes in 10 wont do anything for 11 but having a stable and bug free 11 could have huge impact on Vegas 12.

Jason said "Sony would help to restore some goodwill that was lost to those of us who paid for v11 and have reverted to v10 out of necessity and perhaps help keep some from jumping ship altogether." That doesn't make sense to me, if you already bought 11 and they fixed everything that bothered you about it why wouldn't their time be better spent working on 11? Why would you want to stay "reverted"?

Not trying to flame at all but just seems to me that it would be in everyone's best interest that finite resources be spent on the current/future versions instead of trying to fix yesterdays mistakes. Unless someone is just not wanting to spend the money for 11, that's the only justification I can find for this.

Underground Planet

i am erikd wrote on 1/7/2012, 1:58 PM
Ray, I think you make a good point but the reality here is that many of us have at least temporarily given up on getting a daily workhorse V11 version. We feel that if Sony would at least fix the huge "replaced footage" bug in V10 that at least the bleeding would be stopped for awhile. I agree with Chienworks in that I can only rely on V9e to get my work done and as far as I'm concerned that was the last real version of Vegas. Since V10 never was anywhere near as stable as V9 why should we have hopes that V11 will somehow become a solid release? It just doesn't seem realistic in light of the way Sony moved on from V10 and acted like everything was fine.

MUTTLEY wrote on 1/7/2012, 3:01 PM
So you have "given up on getting a daily workhorse V11 version" so they should take time to fix an older version instead of devoting that time to fixing the newer or future versions and making it into the "workhorse" that you would want it to be? So if they fixed version 10 you would want to buy 11 because you would trust them more even though 11 isn't still working to the best of it's ability because they spent their resources fixing 10? Or if 11 were to get "fixed" and become stable you wouldn't trust that it is because they didn't fix 10?

"Since V10 never was anywhere near as stable as V9 why should we have hopes that V11 will somehow become a solid release" So if it were working great and the forums were happy ... I"m confused, really really really confused.

With all due respect I just fail to see the logic.

- Ray
Underground Planet
farss wrote on 1/7/2012, 3:27 PM
"I upgraded to the latest Nvidia drivers and 511 now works 90% or better of the time without crashing"

Good for you but it is supposed to work 100% of the time 24/7.
Unremarkably other software houses whose code is used by millions of people have been using those nVidia drivers for years doing the same thing without crashes. Most likely SCS are making calls in unusual ways and invoking bugs in the drivers. They've been well known for doing this for a decade with a wide variety of hardware and drivers. Eveything should be bug free but why is it only SCS that keeps poking a stick into a hornets nest that makes the bugs swarm out to bite the users.

"As for the replace file problem, as long as there are many here who are NOT having that problem the cause has to be system specific and NOT a bug in Vegas!"

Talk about being in denial
SCS have acknowledged the bug, the people who write the code have said yes it is a bug. This has been done to death here.
How in the world can you then deduce that the problem is NOT in Vegas.

You've made the same kind of statement before regarding issues such as Vegas crashing. Try reading the release notes. I have not read any in years that has not said a bug that could cause a crash has been fixed.