Bob said: They realised the whole code base was too tangled and too much bolted on to go forward and it was time for a complete rethink. I had hoped this would have happened with Vegas when it had "Pro" added to the name. Too late now so maybe it's time to move from Vegas to Reno?

There's a place in San Jose called the Winchester Mystery House. I've never been but sometimes Vegas makes me think of it. Lots of stuff scabbed on, much of it not loved by the developers in Madison.

For me, alarm bells went off when the product naming went from Vegas to Vegas Pro. It was just a name change. You could maybe say it was a statement of intent, that they intended to go after professional customers, but the product didn't really change along with the name.

To be fair, I've seen more effort to beef up Vegas in the last few versions, but I agree that it's time for a fresh start. The product is good, some of the ideas are good, some half-baked, but the foundations are more than 10 years old and it's time to stop scabbing fixes onto the old structure. (Unless they can scab on fixes that actually fix things.)

Rob Mack

By comparison it's increasingly harder to not reach the conclusion that the Vegas base code is well past its use by date and is long overdue for a rewrite.Actually, it is my belief, based on experience, that the problem is exactly the opposite: the newer engineers -- probably around Vegas 10 -- said that the underlying code was too old, badly written, etc., that it needed to be re-written. I'm sure the argument went something like this (I've been in dozens of these meetings): "we can't possibly move ahead with 64-bit computing, 3D, blah, blah, unless we re-write all the underlying code." They then promise that this re-write won't take that long, and they finally get approval. Two years later, they finally have managed to duplicate, more or less, the original functionality, but the code has ballooned, gotten slower, and they have not added one original, useful feature.

If you look at the download sizes, you can see this for yourself:

vegas70d_enu.exe 134 MB
vegaspro80c_enu.exe 112 MB
vegaspro100e_32bit.exe 193 MB (oops!!)
vegaspro11.0.511_64bit.exe 209 MB

So, the code re-write has happened, I'm sure.

Short version: SCS does not have the resources (money and/or otherwise) to do what those in this thread want!

Read below for the long version:

Ok, so let’s assume that SCS sincerely wants to do at least something for version 10. When it comes to priorities, their focus WIIL BE ON VERSION 11 FIRST! This is for those who paid for version 11. Money talks a whole lot louder than forum messages and those who paid for version 11 will be heard first! Yes, I know we paid for version 10 but those who also paid for version 11 will be served first!

So when SCS gets done with version 11 as far as the most important things are concerned then their focus will be on version 12 and whatever new features it will have.

So after 11 let’s assume they have three months they can use to focus on version 10. What issues would they focus on the most with version 10? Fix all the bugs reported by users here? Not all bugs in version 10 are happening on all systems. Less than 1% of the bugs listed for version 10 happen on my system. Also on many of the systems that users here have. As for those who are having show stopper issues, not all here are having the same issues. And many of the issues are system/user issues not Vegas issues.

So what are the most important issues that SCS could/should deal with in a short amount of time? What issues are actually Vegas caused vs. system/user caused?

I just took a quick look at the Adobe forum and saw the familiar crashes, not responding, low memory, poor quality on render and a host of the same type of problems I see with Vegas. A number of problems were solved by updates. Most problems were system/user errors. There are new and unexpected issues that are from those who went from Final Cut to Premiere. And most of those are user issues caused by the adjustments from one NLE to another. It took a bit of adjustments for me when I went from MSP to Vegas. That alone would slow my work-flow down much more than the very few crashes I have. And the crashes/issues ARE the fault of my system and me not Vegas! I will be re-doing my system and behave myself and all of that WILL be solved.

As for fixing problems on previous versions, Adobe has a much higher price tag to begin with to support this PLUS a much larger user base which also means a lot more resources (MONEY) to support this as well. Same with Microsoft!

SCS is under the umbrella of Sony but I sincerely doubt if they will get the needed resources from Sony to even consider fixing older versions. Shoot, Sony is so incredibly s t u p i d as to include Adobe with some of the computers they sell. Support SCS for fixing bugs on previous Vegas versions? DO NOT COUNT ON IT!!!

As for the Pro part, I went from Ulead’s Media Studio Pro version 8 to Vegas 6. The Pro part of MSP was a joke at best!

Still, I am now so proficient with Vegas, old, tired, bad hearing, poor vision and my brain went somewhere (LOL) that I am not going to go to another NLE and learn all of its stuff and STILL have crashes and issues with it! And at a much higher price! Yea, an earlier version might get fixed but it is still not worth it to me!

Pay for version 11 already and move on…

P.S. I hit reply 100! YEA!!!

Now let's have a party to celebrate...

"If you look at the download sizes, you can see this for yourself:

You think?

Vegas 4 42 MB
Vegas 5 42 MB
Vegas 6 102 MB (oops!!)

On top of that I've heard nothing about any flood of young turks joining the team.
Vegas 10 added quite a few features such as support for OFX and that might have blown out the code base. Also somewhere along the line Media Manager got included in the download and that's a quite large slab of code and then it was pulled off into a separate download.

The actual executables are probably a better indication of how much code is involved. I only have the figures for V10 and V11 on hand and V10 is 18MB and V11 20MB.

Bob.

V8 is 11MB. I'm sceptical that there's been a major rewrite because I still see some identical weird behaviour over the past few versions.

I think it's important not to lose focus on the original idea behind all this. The point was, if the replaced footage bug has really been fixed in V11, then there is a reasonable chance that it's a simple enough fix that a patch to V10 could be released at minimal effort. It might even be a single line of code.

The other important point not to forget is that IT'S AN ABSOLUTE HUMDINGER OF A BUG!, affecting a large proportion of users.

Of course the fix might be extremely complex, entailing an absolutely enormous rewrite of huge quantities of code that cannot be ported back to V10, in which case fair enough, keep the focus on V11.

Executable size doesn't tell you much because the Windows DLL model means that much of what goes on gets loaded from DLLs.

The Vegas 6 increase in the download size was due entirely to the fact that the bloated "media manager" was bolted onto Vegas for the first time and included in the download. I already saw this and didn't bother to include that increase in size from 4&5 to Vegas 6 because I knew it was from that one, external item.

I'm not sure what caused the one bump in Vegas 7.0d (the size went down in Vegas 8), but I think that version may have included a .NET redistributable installer, whereas later versions merely query your system, and if .NET is needed, a separate download is performed.

So, I stand by my story, that Vegas 10 is where everything got re-written.

As to young turks being required for this move for a re-write, that isn't necessarily needed. As I mentioned, I've manager a lot of software projects, and without exception every software engineer has this combination of pride in his/her work, and yet loathing of that same accomplishment because the programmer always knows, after the fact, all the mistakes and tradeoffs that happened during development and, as a result, there is always this desire to go back and "do it right" the next time around.

Of course a more experienced programmer -- and hopefully the manager of the group -- is supposed to be able to suppress these natural instincts and keep the project moving forward, release after release. At some point various pieces may have to be re-built, but hopefully this can be done in small segments so that things which have worked since day one don't suddenly stop working, or simply go away.

I took a few minutes to create a list of those who have already added there names to support the release of a new patch from SCS for V10.

You wouldn't accept downright mediocrity and incompetence with any other purchase you've made so please don't settle for a buggy, unprofessional V10. SCS thinks they can just move right along to V11 without fixing V10 and we will just roll over and accept it.

The list so far:

erikd
Nick Hope
bastinado
amendeqw
Bob Moyer
Rory Cooper
jimsch
Randy Brown
farss
winrock
JasonATL
ChristoC
PeterDuke
Leee
Hulk
kairosmatt
Alf Hanna
JHendrix
JJkizak
Soniclight
Radio Guy
robwood
kcw
stevengotts
johnmeyer
Steve Rhoden
ushere
paul w
Ecquillii
atom12

I know that there are many more lurkers than posters here on this forum so you can be sure there are plenty of other unsatisfied owners of V10. Stop lurking at least this one time. Take a few minutes to contribute to and maybe we can get some momentum that leads to real action from SCS.

Yes, please add my name to the list of those who wish the "replaced footage" bug fixed in Sony Vegas Pro 10.

Tim Robertson
User of Vegas since April 2001: Vegas Audio LE, Vegas Video 3, Vegas 7, 8, 9 and 10

—but not 11

If the fix for 10 can be applied without a major rewrite, users of 10 deserve it , even though 11 is getting work out for me (losing hair while doing it, though).

Whether it's been done before or not, I think it would be a marketing coup for Sony. People respond to integrity.

Larry

"f you want to start using Vegas now, SONY won't sell you the version that is stable and works. You can only buy the newest one."

First off, anyone who's already bought a previous version of Vegas could have just saved the installer. Second, if you're talking about someone who's new to Vegas my guess would be 0% would want to either buy or use a previous version. If I get new piece of software and it doesn't work to my specifications I'm uninstalling, possibly asking for a refund and moving on elsewhere.

"A hardware company would immediately be out of business if would produce and sell comparably dysfunctional products. It's easy to understand that it is harder (and a lot more expensive) to repair hardware in the field, compared to just publishing software patches"

Than what are driver updates? I can't count the times I've had an issue with a piece of hardware, anything from a mother board to a video card to a hard drive where a new driver, bios update, or Windows update didn't fix it.

"We aren't going to bother with V12 if Sony can't get it right! Do you hear this SCS? We don't care about any new hype or any new features, or whatever other promotion you want to throw out for V12 if you can't deliver to us what WE ALREADY PAID FOR!!!!!"

I think you're taking quite a leap by adding everyone's name who may have agreed with your initial sentiment from when you started this thread that simply asked "For those who would like for Sony to release 10f please sign below. Please, add your name only if this matter is of high importance to you." to your new escalated rhetoric. Though people may or may not agree with you on various points I find it rather presumptive if not arrogant for you to be so loosely using the word "We" now when you have so grossly perverted the essence of a rather innocuous and fair initial request to now calling for an all out holy war. And then you use all their names in another thread? Wow, that's audacity for ya. I'm especially glad I've been on the other side of the argument because I would be LIVID had you had the gall to add my name to a demand I never agreed to.

- Ray
Underground Planet

P.S. After seeing yet another thread of decent I feel compelled to add that I know that there have been times in the past when Sony has considered closing down the forums when they had simply become to acidic. I'd kindly suggest that we ALL (self included) begin to calm down, stop creating new threads that are just attempting to fan the flames, and hopefully begin to have a civil dialog before we all loose what I think "we" all may agree is a valuable asset to Vegas users past, present, and future.

"Of course a more experienced programmer -- and hopefully the manager of the group -- is supposed to be able to suppress these natural instincts and keep the project moving forward, release after release. At some point various pieces may have to be re-built, but hopefully this can be done in small segments so that things which have worked since day one don't suddenly stop working, or simply go away."

I've been the person who made the call to pull the plug on a system development project. I originally thought we could pull it off but after wasting >$100K of the companies money I had to concede the architecture was not suitable and ours and the client's interests were better served by pulling the plug.

I was working for the same company when if became obvious that the Oregon Pascal compiler would not produce executable code that was fast enough for our purpose. We'd already spent a lot of money before we jumped ship to a C compiler and rewrote a lot of code.

The software that I currently earn a crust maintaining is well overdue for a complete redesign, there's currently six different versions and that number looks like doubling when we add support for 64bit, it really could be reduced to two. Of course the company who pays for my time doesn't want to spend the money and that's understandable when the entire market for the code is 250 users. I have been slowly pushing the design closer and doing a lot of the work unpaid so I understand the work ethic of most programmers.

Still though I am left with a couple of questions regarding Vegas having ever gone through a greenfield redesign. Who in the world would today design such a system around Microsoft's VFW interface when Microsoft themselves declared it obsolete over a decade ago. If Vegas was rewritten surely it'd be to Microsoft's latest specs rather than being beholden to legacy support.
Further it's hard to imagine how a number of bugs such as the "black frame" problem could have survived a code redesign as well as the problem with media being swapped around.

Bob.

I wouldn't say i'm really a member of "the list". I don't use Vegas 10 at all. I gave up on it long ago because it wouldn't run for more than a few seconds on any of my computers. I don't think i even bothered trying the "b" update much less any of the later ones. It wasn't worth the effort. My time was better spent getting work done.

My reason for skipping 11 altogether was that it's not XP compatible. While i do have Win7 on my laptop, all the rest of my computers including my production rigs are probably going to be running XP for at least a few more years. I didn't see any sense in running 11 on my laptop and producing .veg files that i can't use anywhere else. This means it's quite likely i'll be skipping 12 & 13 as well, assuming they come out in the next few years. But, i'm certainly not skipping them in protest over version 10.

On the other hand, i'm not seeing any shortcomings in 9 that bother me in the slightest. It handles AVCHD just fine even on my old hardware and i'm unlikely to use any video sources other than DV or AVCHD for the foreseeable future.

Muttley wrote: Though people may or may not agree with you on various points I find it rather presumptive if not arrogant for you to be so loosely using the word "We" now when you have so grossly perverted the essence of a rather innocuous and fair initial request to now calling for an all out holy war. And then you use all their names in another thread? Wow, that's audacity for ya. I'm especially glad I've been on the other side of the argument because I would be LIVID had you had the gall to add my name to a demand I never agreed to."

Dude, for someone calling for civility you are the first and only one to go personal. You use language like, 'holy war", "audacity", "rhetoric", "LIVID". Thanks for enlightening me on what civil rhetoric is in your opinion.

The title of the thread is "We the people..." and that simple point is to leverage the collective "we" to get what we paid for. So yes, it has been "we" from the very beginning.

As far as "using their names in another thread" goes, it says very clearly (sorry, does require reading the actual words of the post) that these are the people who want V10 fixed. What's the problem? Any calm, rational, civil person can see that I hope.

You wrote: "I know that there have been times in the past when Sony has considered closing down the forums when they had simply become to acidic."

Then they might as well close down the company too then. The users are the ones who have supported each release of Vegas as it is their dollars that makes it go. The fact is that SCS changed the game when they moved onto V11 when V10 wasn't and still isn't reliable.

Erik

" I don't use Vegas 10 at all. I gave up on it long ago because it wouldn't run for more than a few seconds on any of my computers."

Same here. I open the program and before I'm five minutes into any serious editing. CRASH. Back to V9e which was released on May 14, 2010. V10 was released on October 11, 2010. It has been nearly two years now since anything reliable came out of SCS.

Erik

9e has the "replaced footage" bug, doesn't it?

If so, i've never seen it. The worst that ever happens to me is the occasional black frame thing, but it's very rare, and all i do is close the project and reopen and it's fine.

"9e has the "replaced footage" bug, doesn't it?"

Yes.
Now that I know about it I use Ctl+Z with great caution and save very regularly to incremental version numbers.

Bob.

For me, I get it when I have two instances of Vegas 10e open, and copy/paste between them. The next time I open the "master" project is when I get bitten. The complexity of my "master" project may be a factor. It's as if each instance of Vegas has an internal table that relates media to events, and somehow it gets these two tables confused with each other.

V10 does have quite a few things I like that V8 doesn't (Elastique, audo events not having to be on frame boundaries, much better AVC/mp4 support etc.), so it'll be a shame for me to have to go back to V8 for my next big project. Even if V11 stabilises in a future release I'm not in a position to upgrade for the time being, since I'm not prepared to update my OS to Win7 from XP just for that, when all my other programs are running just fine on XP.

Nick, in case you don't know, I use Elastique in V9.

Erik

Take individual words out of contest all you want I stand by my statements. Ignore the point that I was making that you started out this thread with a more or less reasonable request (even if I disagree with it) and asked people to agree with that first request. Somehow in your own mind you have parlayed that into thinking that those who agreed with your original request of "For those who would like for Sony to release 10f please sign below." to mean that this "We" that agreed with your initial question now agree with your escalated stance of "We aren't going to bother with V12 if Sony can't get it right! Do you hear this SCS? We don't care about any new hype or any new features, or whatever other promotion you want to throw out for V12 if you can't deliver to us what WE ALREADY PAID FOR!!!!!"

I'm sorry Sir but its disingenuous at best to assume and misrepresent that just because someone may have agreed with you on the former that they now agree with you on the latter. Forgive me for saying so but that's simply not the case and to assume so , at least to me, seems borderline irrational. To put it another way its as if you had a bunch of people sign a petition and then changed the petition they singed to something else entirely. You can't do that after the fact and think that those signatures are still either legitimate or relevant.

Now if there was some secret meeting somewhere and you were elected to represent this collective "we" here on the forums than I retract all of my previous comments and am just hurt I wasn't invited.

- Ray
Underground Planet

Muttley, Last go at this for me since you didn't say anything new....
Your name isn't on the list and so it isn't about you and never was. Geez.

If V10 works great for you I'm very happy for you. Wish it were true for me and host of others on this forum. The thread is for those who are unsatisfied with V10 and WE want an update.

Sorry Erik, i'm with MUTTLEY on this. I didn't put my name on your list. I never asked for a version 10 update. All i've said was i gave up using it.