Your opinions on "codec packs" please ....

Comments

JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/14/2014, 5:54 AM
> "Just a guess but, not only would they have to write them (costs money) but they would also have to keep them up to date (costs more money). I would also imagine there are patents and license fees to worry about. Any additional cost they would incur would simply get passed on to the consumer."

Do you like Free Software? Do you like Open Source? Then let me tell you what I believe is going on here Rob. Some of the software in K-Lite is protected by the GNU Public License agreement. This license agreement states:

GNU Public License (says...)
"...if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights."

That means that as a developer, while you are enjoying the freedom to use free open software, you must extend this right to others. By depending on K-Lite libraries, ProDAD should be offering their source code to others for free according to the GPL. This is why it's not part of their installer. The ProDAD installer wasn't designed by programmers... it was designed by Lawyers! This is different from just using the codec if it's there. They seem to be dependent on K-Lite for some of their functionality. That's more than just using a codec if it happens to be available like Vegas does.

So if I'm correct, what ProDAD is doing is using a legal loop hole by not including K-Lite in their package to make money off the labor of Open Source developers. If their software was free that would be a different story but they are making money from Open Source without contributing back. As a software developer, that is wrong in my book. That's another reason why I think what they have done is unprofessional.

BTW, I work with Open Source in my job every day. One time I wanted to use an open source spell checker under the GPL in one of my products but I knew that if I did I would have to give away my source code which I could not agree to so I did not use it. I guess I should have used it and then asked my customers to download the spell checker library separate and circumvented the GPL just like ProDAD seems to have done. I thought that was unprofessional so I didn't do it. Like I said, I don't know if this is the reason they are making K-Lite a separate install and not including what they need in their product installer, but it sure looks fishy to me.

~jr
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 6:46 AM
"Over the years there have been many warnings regarding the k-lite codec pack."

By who exactly? A few on this board... maybe a few on another board...?
Once again, How come I'm not having problems with K-lite on my machine?
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 7:04 AM
"So if I'm correct, what ProDAD is doing is using a legal loop hole by not including K-Lite in their package to make money off the labor of Open Source developers."

You are not correct. Prodad is in the business to make filters, not codecs.

It's no different than a kids tablet. Most kids tablets are android based and the big reason for this is that android is open source and therefore customizable to a child's level. Vtech... Nabi... Play... etc are all android tablets with slightly altered android software. Now Vtech doesn't make the software. They only make the hardware and install the altered software.

Vtech is one of the top rated children's tablets that there are, so how do you call this "unprofessional"?
VMP wrote on 7/14/2014, 7:23 AM
I remember having the K-lite codec pack on my previous system.

I don't remember having any problems with it.
I did find it annoying that some icons started appearing and blinking on the taskbar when a file was played containing AC3 audio or some other compressor/codec.
That made me think, what else could the software pack be monitoring?
But on the other hand when I click on those icons I could do some real-time tweaking during playback.

Not sure, but I think you can also select which codec you want to install instead of the total codecpak.
Until now I have not have the need to install the pack on my new system.

I think the most fear for such software comes due to it not being made by some official large company.
- What if it has spyware, will it destroy my OS? etc.
Questions that I too cannot answer.

Also the name sounds like the old peer to peer software 'Kazaa lite' which was also used for illegal file transfer.
That could add some more negativity to its reputation.

DivX suffered the same problem, it being used for X-rated material, but (IMO) it is being accepted as being more mainstream.
I remember DivX having a survey/poll on their website.
They wanted to know what people thought that DivX was.
One of the given options was' X-rated material'

Anyway, just installing the missing compressor/decoder without making other major changes to the OS would be the best.

VMP
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/14/2014, 7:33 AM
> "It's no different than a kids tablet. Most kids tablets are android based and the big reason for this is that android is open source and therefore customizable to a child's level."

Android is not GPL. All Open Source is not GPL. Go read up on GPL. It is not the same thing.

~jr
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 7:45 AM
"Not sure, but I think you can also select which codec you want to install instead of the total codecpak."

Exactly. K-lite (as well as ffdshow) gives you full (and very detailed) control over which codecs are enabled and which are not, so if you're having problems it's not the k-lite package it's merely that you don't have it set up correctly.

That's the best I can figure. It's what best explains why some have issues and some don't. I have no issues with it at all and frankly find it quite powerful. I can play lots of formats now on WPM that didn't work before. My MTS icons show up as actual thumbnails ( yes, there's a switch in the k-lite control panel for thumbnails) I can play back AC3 and DTS with no special software involved.

There are quite a few advantages here... IF. you set it up properly.
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 7:48 AM
"Android is not GPL. All Open Source is not GPL. Go read up on GPL. It is not the same thing."

WRONG.
You're splitting hairs to suit your argument
Straight for the hourse's mouth:
"Android is an

[url=https://source.android.com/]
ushere wrote on 7/14/2014, 8:22 AM
as an aside based on personal experience...

many years ago i installed klite AFTER vegas and had problems with some codecs. on a new pc thereafter i installed klite PRIOR to vegas and had none.

what that means in the scheme of things i have no idea....

suffice to say i avoid ANY additional codecs unless absolutely necessary, eg. qt. otherwise i like a clean machine.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/14/2014, 9:28 AM
If Prodad wants full confidence in my little corner of the world, they will use ffmpeg or libav libraries from their, which are noninvasive, not roque third-party bundles such as k-lite or ffdshow.

Is it Prodad's fixation on WMV that compels them to require k-lite? Well, k-lite's own blurb seems to support the notion:
"

Notice they say "media player codecs," not mentioning NLE or encoding purposes. No wonder we got troubles.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/14/2014, 9:50 AM
> "You're splitting hairs to suit your argument"

No I'm not. I'm trying to tell you that there are a multitude of licenses agreements for Open Source and some of them require that you make your code free available.

Android does not use the GNU Public License. Android is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 2.5.

Read the bottom of the page you pointed me to.

~jr
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 10:55 AM
"No I'm not. I'm trying to tell you that there are a multitude of licenses agreements for Open Source and some of them require that you make your code free available. "
Well, I'm not going to debate the point Johnny because it's a useless one in the first place. Your post on the topic includes "If I am Correct..." which means you don't even know. Just more wild guesses.
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 11:14 AM
In ACTUAL FACT k-lite is listed as "freeware" and is developed by CODEC GUIDE.
"K-Lite Codec Pack 2.7 64-bit Edition have been downloaded a combined total of 1,452,750 times up until this date, and have received a user rating of 4.3 out of 5 from 2,082 users. K-Lite Codec Pack Full 5.2 was also a Softpedia Pick"

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Lite_Codec_Pack]



"Notice they say "media player codecs," not mentioning NLE or encoding purposes. No wonder we got troubles. "
Straight from the horses mouth:
"The K-Lite Codec Pack is a collection of DirectShow filters, VFW/ACM codecs, and tools. Codecs and DirectShow filters are needed for

[url=http://codecguide.com/about_kl.htm]
musicvid10 wrote on 7/14/2014, 11:25 AM
"Encoding and decoding . . ."
Then maybe you can explain why it wouldn't do either for me in Vegas, with some rather common formats?
Just because you haven't experienced it means it doesn't exist, right?
Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 2:22 PM
"Then maybe you can explain why it wouldn't do either for me in Vegas,"
As far as I know, Vegas itself does not use DS codecs.

"Just because you haven't experienced it means it doesn't exist, right?"
That statement works two ways.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/14/2014, 3:27 PM
I love deniers
;?)
Laurence wrote on 7/14/2014, 5:31 PM
The codec pack is the least of my problems with Mercalli SAL 3.

Issue 1: Mercalli SAL 3 treats my 30p AVCHD footage that is wrapped in a 60i format container as if it was actually 60i. This introduces interlace artifacts on motion. SAL 2 used to let you override this auto identification of the video format manually. With SAL 3, there is no manual override if the program gets it wrong. Thus 30p AVCHD footage from my GH3 is unusable with this program.

Issue 2: With Mov footage from my GH3 and most (probably all) DSLR cameras, the color range between the stabilized and unstablized footage is different. My opinion is that Mercalli SAL is actually reading the levels correctly, then writing them into a format that Vegas doesn't accidentally stretch, but none-the-less, the input and output footage don't match.
Steve Mann wrote on 7/14/2014, 10:55 PM
"Why have some installed k-lite and not had ANY issues?"

The biggest problem with K-Lite codecs is that they are generally inferior to codecs from primary sources. Usually the company that owns the code. Worse, K-Lite will replace any conflicting codecs with theirs.

So, why have some installed K-Lite and not had issues? One of two reasons. 1, they installed K-Lite before Vegas, and Vegas installed the codecs it needed over the K-lite ones. 2. they never need any of the Vegas-installed codecs that were replaced by the K-Lite codecs.

Rob Franks wrote on 7/14/2014, 11:52 PM
"Worse, K-Lite will replace any conflicting codecs with theirs."
No....
I can't believe how much misinformation there is here!
As stated quite a few times now, K-lite comes with a very detailed control panel which allows YOU to control the codecs you want involved.

If a codec is being used that you didn't want then it is no ones fault other than the operators for not making the proper adjustments. Contrary to what people seem to think, k-lite does not come in and 'replace' any codecs that already exist. The control panel gives you a complete and total choice of preferred codecs, but defaults upon installation with your original codec as the preferred choice.
IF, you understand it, k-lite along with its control system is pretty powerful and adds tons of flexibility.

[url=http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/use-your-favorite-directshow-decoder-in-windows-media-player-wmc-win7dsfiltertweaker/]

K-lite actually comes with TWO control panels, the above and CODEC TWEAK TOOL.
Between the two tools you can tune codecs till your heart is content.

"So, why have some installed K-Lite and not had issues? One of two reasons. 1, they installed K-Lite before Vegas, and Vegas installed the codecs it needed over the K-lite ones. 2. they never need any of the Vegas-installed codecs that were replaced by the K-Lite codecs."
I installed k-lite AFTER vegas.
K-lite does not 'replace' codecs. It gives you a choice on which ones to use.
DeadRadioStar wrote on 7/15/2014, 11:08 AM
Wow! 70 replies .... must be some kind of record? Anyway, thanks once again to all for the advice, and to others for the sheer entertainment value, as I watched the punches being thrown while chomping on my popcorn. I clearly managed to hit some kind of sore spot amongst Vegas users!

Just a couple of points for clarity's sake:

1. Mercalli V3 SAL on my system (W7 x64) will not load any video files at all, not even the most basic DVD-compliant MPEG that DVD Architect is happy to accept, and proDAD support have told me to install the K-Lite Codec Pack if I want to fix this. As far as I'm concerned, that makes the K-Lite Codec Pack a prerequisite for the product.

2. I have Mercalli Easy 2.0.4700 and that does load the same test file even though I have not installed the K-Lite Codec Pack. It brings up the warning, but I ignore this. This may be because the V3 SAL is the 64-bit version, whereas the Easy is 32-bit, so there must be something that is available in terms of codecs at 32-bit that isn't available at 64-bit.

So, the choice appears to be to either install the K-Lite Codec Pack, or avoid the SAL and pay more the the Mercalli plugin for Vegas.

There was a suggestion to install codecs first, then Vegas; in fact, this has also been my experience in order to obtain a stable system. I don't know why this works, and frankly, I don't think I care to know, but it's what I do every time now when I install or upgrade Vegas. It seems to overwrite or fix something, somewhere, but since I started doing this, Vegas hasn't crashed once.
Warper wrote on 7/15/2014, 12:45 PM
Back in 32 bit world I've got few troubles with K-Lite codec and formats I used in Vegas. It had mp3 codecs that never worked in Vegas, it got h264 encoder from ffdshow that had some troubles with Vegas (in some installs it's unworking ghost, in some it does work). Once it ruined ac3 encoder. Once it turned fraps codec off. Well, it did many bad things in the past, even though only few versions were aggressive enough to do it without permission from user (me).

You should not really want to use all this avi stuff in Vegas as mpeg-4 and h264 codecs are partially incompatible with avi container and Vegas is the example of such incompatiblity. And I'd say it's bad idea to install xvid or divx if you use other YUV codecs in avi container. That's not the K-Lite to blame, but those mpeg-4 YUV->RGB filters.

Now 64-bit K-Lite is more like 64-bit ffdshow plus few audio codecs, plus media player, plus DS filters and splitters you don't use in Vegas. As with all codecs install what you really need in your work and you'll be in controllable environment. You have control and I see it as quite safe idea to install 64-bit K-Lite and disable everything you don't desperately need. But you can install ffdshow or ffdshow tryouts instead of K-Lite. That should be enough for Vegas.
NormanPCN wrote on 7/15/2014, 7:56 PM
In Vegas 12 and 13 I see no evidence that Vegas installs any video codecs into any codec subsystem of Windows, including Vfw (Video for Windows). I used Gspot and searched the registry a little. I claim nothing other than that.

Also, Vegas 12/13 will always tell you exactly what they are using to read an input file. Don't know about pre-VP12. Right click the media in the project media pane and select properties and the general tab and look at the plug-in. If aviplug (Vfw) or qt7plug (mov) are listed then those codec subsystems are in control of that particular file. I think Vegas always goes directly to its own codecs when it sees stuff in the file header that it knows it has its own decoders for and Vegas only supports certain codecs in certain containers.

There are some exceptions.

Sony YUV 10-bit. It is listed under Video for Windows (Vfw) and it outputs a file with a fourcc of v210. There is no DirectShow or Vfw codec installed for a v210 fourcc. I also have K-lite standard installed. Media players that use the codec subsystems will not play the file. GSpot says nothing is installed. WMP will use all codec subsystems on Windows. VLC plays it.

I believe Vegas bypasses Vfw for this particular item listed in the render as dialog, but it still lists aviplug in media properties. The bypass code could simply be in aviplug.

Vegas does bypass Quicktime for most DSLR AVC MOV files. In this case qt7plug will NOT be listed in media properties. I have always seen compoundplug listed for my Canon DSLR and digicam MOV files.

Maybe at one point proDad was a DirectShow application and preferred a DirectShow codec pack installed since Windows had so little codecs installed by default. This is NOT the case with Mercalli V3 SAL and Respeedr. I Own both and monitored the installs. They install private codecs, private to each app, and only output AVC via x264. The codecs are from the ffmpeg project just like everything else open source out there including VLC, K-lite, CCCP, ffmbc and so on.

Rob Franks wrote on 7/15/2014, 9:05 PM
"In Vegas 12 and 13 I see no evidence that Vegas installs any video codecs into any codec subsystem of Windows, including Vfw (Video for Windows). I used Gspot and searched the registry a little. I claim nothing other than that."

Yeah, I'm not sure what the confusion here is but all these codec packs (k-lite... ffdshow... etc) are supplements to the Windows system only and have little to do with other programs, unless of course those programs rely directly on the windows codec subsystem. Vegas itself (I am reasonably sure) does not. Vegas has its own codec subsystem and does not rely on windows.

Now, having said that, some third party external plugins and vst's DO use the windows codec subsystem for part of their operations and you can get into compatibility issues with those with those, but that's always been a possibility with third party plugins.
DeadRadioStar wrote on 7/16/2014, 4:13 AM
With so many posts in this thread (not to mention, some of them very passionate!), this is clearly a burning topic with Vegas users, and I think it would be really helpful if someone from SCS would chime in and offer advice. It's not that I don't trust the views expressed here .... I take both sides of the argument seriously and some of you guys are clearly much more knowledgeable than me, but wouldn't you imagine that if Vegas, as a product, could suffer so much from the installation of a codec, that someone technical from SCS might like to offer an opinion?

As a user of digital video, I understand that I should have at least a basic understanding of what a codec is and how the whole thing works, but as a user of DV products such as Vegas and Mercalli I really don't think I should have to effectively become a Windows system programmer in order to avoid breaking my rig.
John_Cline wrote on 7/16/2014, 4:24 AM
"Vegas itself (I am reasonably sure) does not. Vegas has its own codec subsystem and does not rely on windows."

This is generally true, although it will use third-party VFW codecs, like Lagarith, UTVideo and Cineform. Vegas also relies on Quicktime to handle .MOV files. Otherwise, the major formats are handled internally.