How do I specifically render out 10 bit 4:2:2 video?

t3t4 wrote on 11/24/2021, 1:41 PM

Been searching for days for the simple instructions on this and none exist, or at least they cannot be found with any search engine on any site or manual, including Google. So how do I do it? The option does not exist on any format that I've tried and I've tried just about all of them. The closest I can get is HEVC 10 bit but only @ 420. The 422 is always grayed out if and when it's even shown in the template window. I've recorded a bunch of 4k 10 bit 422 clips at 150 Mbs and I just simply want to spit it out as a single put together video at the exact same quality level. Just how what and why, somebody please tell me what I'm missing here.

Thanks.

Comments

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 11/24/2021, 2:23 PM

The optional Voukoder codec for Vegas has 422 options for x265 renders. Otherwise, the the vp19 Apple codec (formerly Magix Intra) outputs 422 as a ProRes clip. If all you want to do is glue hevc clips together, an ffmpeg script could do it very quickly without any transcoding.

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t3t4 wrote on 11/24/2021, 4:46 PM

Oh, so Vegas can't do the simple thing I need. Well I guess that explains why there is zero mention of a how to, literally anywhere online. I can't possibly be the only one that wants to do this simple thing. And I am aware that Voukoder can render what I want out of Vegas, but I didn't know it was my only valid option. Voukoder doe not seem to be using my GPU and takes an eternity! All I want is a finished video, not a transport format, so pro res is not an option for me. Well, this has turned out to be one of those days, but thanks for the info.

wwaag wrote on 11/24/2021, 5:57 PM

@t3t4

The Render+ tool in HappyOtterScripts supports 10bit 422 renders using the x264 avc encoder. Here's a screen grab of the encoder settings dialog.

and the resulting media info of a rendered file. For the demo, I used some 10bit 422 footage from a Canon MarkIII.

All 10bit renders from Vegas are slow since you should be using a 32bit pixel format. Additionally, 10bit renders using HOS also requires the CuminCoder FrameServer which also supports 10bit, unlike the older DebugMode FrameServer which is 8bit only.

You can find more information at https://tools4vegas.com/

Last changed by wwaag on 11/24/2021, 5:58 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero5 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

t3t4 wrote on 11/24/2021, 9:45 PM

@wwaag

Thanks, that looks like very capable software. It just annoys me to no end that I need a 3rd party tool to do this simple job. Vegas should have this capability already baked in, but thanks for the info.

Yellandkeil wrote on 11/24/2021, 11:33 PM

@t3t4, you are missing the basic knowledge of motion pictures.

VEGAS Pro is an unique NLE toward producing industrial standard videos, which have the final definition with 4:2:0/8bit in Rec709 and 4:2:0/10bit in Rec2020 (including HLG/HDR10 productions).

Furthermore, VEGAS Pro can output intermediate clips from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 in both 8bit and 10bit depth.

What a source material with which quality you do have,theoretically, has nothing to do with VEGAS Pro.

 

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t3t4 wrote on 11/24/2021, 11:54 PM

@Yellandkeil

If it can read it and otherwise edit it, then it should be able to render it, simple as that! To trans-code a 9 GB MP4 file into a 60 GB pro res file is ludicrous and makes no sense. I'm new to 422 recording and/or editing, but I gotta find a way to do it with original quality results in a reasonable amount of rendering time and with realistic file sizes.

Yellandkeil wrote on 11/25/2021, 12:09 AM

That's another basic knowledge.

If camcorder can record with lossless codec, it will kick out the HEVC or what else you call, and your source material would be perhaps 90GB instead of 9GB.

You gotta find a way to do it with original quality results? Don't trust your eyes but monitor instruments - OK, that's another story again.

Thanks.

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fr0sty wrote on 11/25/2021, 1:56 AM

ProRes output is 10 bit and up to 4:4:4.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 11/25/2021, 9:04 AM

... To trans-code a 9 GB MP4 file into a 60 GB pro res file is ludicrous and makes no sense. I'm new to 422 recording and/or editing, but I gotta find a way to do it with original quality results in a reasonable amount of rendering time and with realistic file sizes.

@t3t4 That's one reason I avoid ProRes myself. Another reason is that most of my cameras have single CCD sensors which physically capture raw 420 data and debayering to 422 or 444 just bloats the clips up even more with artificial fluff. I do have a couple older triple CCD Canon cameras that can capture actual 444 and save as 422 mxf clips. But they only do hd. And the color in 10-bit hevc clips from my 4k single ccd 420 camera looks noticeably better and is easier to work with... if your camera can shoot 10-bit 420 hevc and your workstation is powerful enough to handle it, I suggest you give that a try. Otherwise, just get larger storage and work media and go with ProRes... many folks with various cameras are capturing ProRes 422 via hdmi to sata ssd using a NinjaV and keeping it in that format for edit. Personally, I prefer more compact and efficient 10-bit hevc 420.

Last changed by Howard-Vigorita on 11/25/2021, 9:06 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 {.8935} & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti {472.47})
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under constr: i9-11900k 64gb (Sapphire ToxicLC 6900xt 16 gb {Adrenalin 21.10.2 } & Intel UHD750 {.9955} ) Win11
currently Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19-latest all with Win10 except as noted.

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(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm

t3t4 wrote on 11/25/2021, 10:30 AM

@Howard-Vigorita

I'd be a real happy camper if I could just render out 10 bit 422 in HEVC, but 420 is my only option in Vegas with that codec. My camera (Panasonic G9) records internally 10 bit 422 @ 150 Mbs in a .MOV wrapper. I mean it's already an MP4 and Vegas can read/edit those files all day long no problem. But it can't render out the same codec or quality? I just can't seem to wrap my head around that. I'd love to have a Ninja if for no other reason than to finally be able to see a screen on my camera. All these built in screens are way too small, or I'm too blind.... But I'd still have the same problem with Vegas not being able to render an MP4 in 422.

So it looks like my only real choice is to learn a 3rd party way of doing the job in a reasonable amount of time. I have a decent computer regarding the hardware, and Voukoder seems to do what I want, but 17+ minutes of rendering time for every 1 minute of actual video is a price I'm not wiling to pay! Clearly I have to ease some settings somewhere and learn to live with it, but I know me and it's still just gonna annoy and keep me up at night.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Cheers.

Yellandkeil wrote on 11/25/2021, 12:08 PM

Somebody upoaded this sample clip for testing.

In VEGASpro19, my machine can play with less than 1fps even in Good/Quarter previewmodus.

I transcoded it into ProRes 422Lite and got full play speed, i.e. I can edit it in a practical way.

Till now I have very positive experience with ProRes-codec.

I transcode using the free XMedia Recode.

Last changed by Yellandkeil on 11/25/2021, 12:09 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Yellandkeil wrote on 11/25/2021, 12:25 PM

PS: the Sony XAVC-Intra-codec in MXF wrapper is another good intermediate.

I don't use it because it cannot handle with HDR10-info.

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Windowspro 10.0.19044.1387
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Vegaspro19 + DVDArchi7 + XMediaRecode 
Acidpro10 + SoundForgpro14.0.0.65 + SpectraLayers7
K-LitecodecPack1655 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback)

todd-b wrote on 11/25/2021, 9:00 PM

@Howard-Vigorita

I'd be a real happy camper if I could just render out 10 bit 422 in HEVC, but 420 is my only option in Vegas with that codec.

So it looks like my only real choice is to learn a 3rd party way of doing the job in a reasonable amount of time. I have a decent computer regarding the hardware, and Voukoder seems to do what I want, but 17+ minutes of rendering time for every 1 minute of actual video is a price I'm not wiling to pay!

What computer do you have? I tried this 2m:30 sec for 1 minute of 422 10bit 4k source encoded to HEVC 422 10bit via voukoder. This is at 30fps, so 5min for a 60fps project. The other thing that I discovered is that voukoder does this at the same speed that MagixHEVC (software encode) does for 420 10bit, so then I discovered what you're saying makes no sense.

The conclusion I come to is you are encoding via Hardware (Nvenc etc) when you use MagixHEVC, and software(CPU) encoding using voukoder. It should be obvious by the way your computer reacts and what your Task Manager displays that's there's 2 difference mechanisms of encoding going on

What you want is hardware encode of 422 HEVC 10bit, you don't get that with AMD or Nvidia GPU, you may get that with the higher end 11 and 12 series intel CPU's @Howard-Vigorita does your 11 series Intel cpu hardware encode to HEVC 422 10bit?

 

 

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 11/26/2021, 3:15 PM
What you want is hardware encode of 422 HEVC 10bit, you don't get that with AMD or Nvidia GPU, you may get that with the higher end 11 and 12 series intel CPU's @Howard-Vigorita does your 11 series Intel cpu hardware encode to HEVC 422 10bit?

@todd-b I think the Iris and hd750 Intel igpus only decode 422 10-bit. But Nvidia can encode 444. Just tried it with Vokouder 10.1 setting codec to "HEVC (Nvidia Nvenc)" on the encoder tab and then setting bit depth to "YUV 4:4:4 (10-bit)" on the options tab. Was able to view the output with mpc-be and load it to the Vegas timeline. Should be faster than a cpu-only x265 422 encode but probably a bigger file.

Last changed by Howard-Vigorita on 11/26/2021, 3:15 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 {.8935} & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti {472.47})
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & integrated Intel HD630 {.9415}) Win11
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Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3})
under constr: i9-11900k 64gb (Sapphire ToxicLC 6900xt 16 gb {Adrenalin 21.10.2 } & Intel UHD750 {.9955} ) Win11
currently Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19-latest all with Win10 except as noted.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm

t3t4 wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:03 PM

@todd-b

What computer do you have? I tried this 2m:30 sec for 1 minute of 422 10bit 4k source encoded to HEVC 422 10bit via voukoder. This is at 30fps, so 5min for a 60fps project. The other thing that I discovered is that voukoder does this at the same speed that MagixHEVC (software encode) does for 420 10bit, so then I discovered what you're saying makes no sense.

The Computer does not matter, I've already stated that Voukoder does not seem to be using all of it. Just as I have already said that I must ease some settings to accomplish my task. Look folks, I appreciate the help that I asked for, and the answer has been clearly given that Vegas simply cannot do on it's own what I/we need it to do. 3rd party tools are required to get the got done. As disappointed as I am, that is the answer to my question.

Thank you all.

Cheers 🍻.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:05 PM

I am curious, what is the intent of this workflow? AKAIK, 422 HEVC is primarily a high compression camera format, not intended for use as an intermediate or as a delivery format. It is "lossy" so a render will lose quality - but maybe not noticeably.

Put another way, who will watch the end result, and on what devices?

t3t4 wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:20 PM

Put another way, who will watch the end result, and on what devices?

If it's MP4 which is the standard delivery format for the internet and beyond, then anybody can watch it on any device. What is this?: AKAIK

Kinvermark wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:37 PM

Sorry, typo.... AFAIK = as far as I know. Sure, 8 bit 420 in an mp4 container is standard, but 10 bit 422 is not, is it?

t3t4 wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:48 PM

Sure, 8 bit 420 in an mp4 container is standard, but 10 bit 422 is not, is it?

Not yet, but more and more cameras are internally recording 422, it's about time for the rest of the world to get up to speed so it can handle the new information. The alternative is to record 422 and render 420. This seems the most feasible choice for most. Not my choice mind you, but still realistically feasible.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/26/2021, 4:58 PM

Sure. Cellphones with dedicated ASIC's for decoding these formats seem to push the ball forward fastest. It is a bit "bleeding edge" for NLE's (Resolve won't render 10 bit 422 HEVC and I guess PPro won't either) and of course encoding with hardware support is limited (not NVIDIA or AMD but maybe latest intel QSV might?) so performance is likely poor.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 11/26/2021, 6:18 PM
The Computer does not matter, I've already stated that Voukoder does not seem to be using all of it.

@t3t4 It matters allot. If you had an Intel igpu you could decode 422 hevc in hardware which would speed up any subsequent renders. And if you had an Nvidia gpu you could do an accelerated 444 render with Voukoder and see for yourself if you can perceive the difference compared to rendering to 420. I predict you cannot. Because your camera sensor only captures 420 and upscaling it to 422 so early in the processing chain is probably just a waste of time, space, and subsequent processing effort. 420 and 422 get upscaled to 444 right before viewing anyway.

You'd have a better chance of seeing the difference if you had a super-expensive beam splitting triple-ccd 4k camera which would at least capture 3 chroma elements for every pixel. But having evolved on a green planet, you might still not be able to perceive the difference.

Last changed by Howard-Vigorita on 11/26/2021, 6:30 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 {.8935} & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti {472.47})
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & integrated Intel HD630 {.9415}) Win11
Workstation: i9-9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb {21.q3.1} & integrated Intel UHD630 {.9466})
Workstation2: XeonE5-1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb {21.q3.1} & Nvidia GTX-1660 8gb {472.47})
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3})
under constr: i9-11900k 64gb (Sapphire ToxicLC 6900xt 16 gb {Adrenalin 21.10.2 } & Intel UHD750 {.9955} ) Win11
currently Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19-latest all with Win10 except as noted.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm

todd-b wrote on 11/26/2021, 7:08 PM
 

The Computer does not matter, I've already stated that Voukoder does not seem to be using all of it.

Ofcourse it's using less of your GPU due to the latency of software encoding, your computer takes 17minutes to encode for every 1min of video, so your GPU is being handed frames to process at an exceedingly slow rate. A hardware encoder that you used for 420 10bit HEVC is fast enough that your low spec CPU and GPU can work as hard as possible (within the coding limits of Vegas) because at 4K most hardware encoders will allow you to encode at a minimum of 60fps if not faster, the limiting factor becomes your cpu and gpu not the encoder

Just as I have already said that I must ease some settings to accomplish my task. Look folks, I appreciate the help that I asked for, and the answer has been clearly given that Vegas simply cannot do on it's own what I/we need it to do. 3rd party tools are required to get the got done.

You were complaining about that to begin with but then you moved over to complain about voukoder being too slow, and I explained why this is.

If you've realized there's no point to 422 10 HEVC encodes because you don't want to software encode due to slowness then choice is go back to 420 10 HEVC where with the help of a hardware GPU encoder(and decoder) or hardware encode to 444 10BIT HEVC via voukoder.

Files will be a bit larger, and take a little longer to enode but much faster then software encode. There may be compatibility problems as I can't load 444 10bit HEVC into Vegas , Loads into premiere but no GPU decode, loads into Resolve fine with GPU decode. Won't work with VLC or MediaPlayer, will work with MediaPlayerClassic but not GPU decode. Looks like the world isn't ready for 444 10bit HEVC just yet but you could try it via voukoder the way @Howard-Vigorita described above to see if it's for you

 

 

 

t3t4 wrote on 11/26/2021, 7:27 PM

Like I said folks, my PC is irrelevant when the software can't use all of it regardless of your tutelage or wishful thinking. Makin noise for the sake of, is still just makin noise!

todd-b wrote on 11/26/2021, 7:58 PM

AT this point, you either don't understand what's been said to you and can't be helped, OR you fully understand that you were comparing a hardware encode to a software encode and now feel dumb as rock for complaining about the slowness, so continue putting up this front. There are no 422 hardware encoders (maybe on Mac M1's), and your computer is extremely slow so software 422 HEVC is not an option for you