Multi-cam project edit worked superb but ColorGrading Panel unusable

paul-marshall wrote on 9/17/2023, 10:57 AM

I've just completed the most advanced editing project I have ever done. A 1 hour multi-camera edit with 6 cameras, all 4K but using Vegas generated proxy files. I have to say I was amazed how well it all worked. To be honest I expected it to be 'challenging' (ie slow or crashing) but that wasnt the case it was all pretty smooth and reliable. VP21 is a big step forward!
BUT I did find the Color Grading panel was sluggish or downright unusable. My plan was to sync up my six video tracks then solo each one and do some color grading tweaks before I went to multi-cam edit mode. The color grading panel took 20 seconds to open and was unusable and another 20 secs to close (but no crash!). I could use the old Vegas Colour corrector FX, that was very responsive, and I could apply the LUT Filter FX. In the end I had to grade each camera on its own in a new project, save the LUT and apply that in the LUT Filter FX.
Any thoughts on why the color grading panel wont work when there are several video tracks?

 

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

Comments

Robert Johnston wrote on 9/17/2023, 1:11 PM

@paul-marshall I don't have a solution. Just wanted to share that I see a long lag when clicking an event on a different track. About 13 seconds before I can edit. It's faster to change events when in Color Grading if you press Alt-G, select different event, press Alt-G back to color grading.

It's getting slower and slower as I use color grading. Over 20 seconds.

Last changed by Robert Johnston on 9/17/2023, 1:25 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Intel Core i7 10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz (to 4.65GHz), NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER 8GBytes. Memory 32 GBytes DDR4. Also Intel UHD Graphics 630. Mainboard: Dell Inc. PCI-Express 3.0 (8.0 GT/s) Comet Lake. Bench CPU Multi Thread: 5500.5 per CPU-Z.

Vegas Pro 21.0 (Build 108) with Mocha Vegas

Windows 11 not pro

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/17/2023, 6:40 PM

I've been doing multicam in Vegas for years but there's a required workflow. Multicam cuts need to be done before the color grading because multicam mode tosses all track and event fx. If you need a lut to see what you're doing, apply it as a media-level CGP. If you're applying luts at the media level as a chained FX, I think that will slow things down when you start using CGP. I think the grading panels get summed into a lut during processing but not with other chained FX.

After the multicam cuts are complete, I then expand back to the original camera tracks... usually one track per camera. That's where I do all the grading. If exposure is consistent throughout the shoot (ie, cameras white balanced and in full manual), I grade primary at the track level with only occasional CGP tweaks at the event level.

If I get footage from other cameramen without white balance and shot in auto exposure mode, it's allot more work. Because exposure and color balance changes with every camera move. And each time their camera moves or zooms, clip-cuts need to be individually graded at the event level. To ease doing this, I make heavy use of Grading Panel presets off of the FX chain. That way I can save a Grading Panel setup from one event and quickly apply it to a similar event shot at the same angle via the saved preset.

I do see some hesitation moving from one selected event to selecting another while remaining in the event-level grading panel. But it's never more than a few seconds, at most. Nowhere near 20. I do notice that as I'm moving through a 2 to 3 hours multicam shoot, it's more noticeable the longer I edit... if Live Save is enabled, it's allot worse. You might want to make sure Live Save is off. Another thing to consider is maybe temp storage might need a cleanup. Perhaps a Vegas reset on startup might help.

Robert Johnston wrote on 9/17/2023, 10:13 PM

I wasn't even doing multicam. There were two short clips, one on track 1 and the other on track 2.

...A few minutes later. Now I'm not having any trouble. I restarted Vegas 21, not reset.

 

Last changed by Robert Johnston on 9/17/2023, 10:52 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Intel Core i7 10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz (to 4.65GHz), NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER 8GBytes. Memory 32 GBytes DDR4. Also Intel UHD Graphics 630. Mainboard: Dell Inc. PCI-Express 3.0 (8.0 GT/s) Comet Lake. Bench CPU Multi Thread: 5500.5 per CPU-Z.

Vegas Pro 21.0 (Build 108) with Mocha Vegas

Windows 11 not pro

Robert Johnston wrote on 9/17/2023, 11:09 PM

Now I know what caused the delays. I had been working with Smart Mask to create a Bezier Mask. Then I used Color Grading to adjust. Whoa!

Intel Core i7 10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz (to 4.65GHz), NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER 8GBytes. Memory 32 GBytes DDR4. Also Intel UHD Graphics 630. Mainboard: Dell Inc. PCI-Express 3.0 (8.0 GT/s) Comet Lake. Bench CPU Multi Thread: 5500.5 per CPU-Z.

Vegas Pro 21.0 (Build 108) with Mocha Vegas

Windows 11 not pro

paul-marshall wrote on 9/18/2023, 8:13 AM

Thanks Howard-Vigoriata for the benefit of your experience. However from my experiments it turns out the unusable color grading panel was down to the AUDIO. I wasn't expecting that!
BTW I regularly reboot the PC and restart Vegas. I dont use Live Save but often save incrementally.
I agree the best point in the workflow to color grade would be after the mulit-cam edit. If there's any error it'll show up worse at a camera change. So I went back to the point in the project after the edit and after expading back to multiple tracks. Totally unusable CGP.
Next I copied all the video clips from the timeline and pasted into a new instance of VP21. Now the CGP is virtually instant. Any clip can be selected and graded with no delay at all. Not the slightest hesitation jumping from one track to another back and forth over the hour with the panel open.
If I copy the audio tracks as well then the CPG is again unusable. So it's not down to corrupt project file. Back to the original.
I have two audio tracks one from one camera (24bit) as the main audio, and one from another as backup (16bit) which was muted. Both have some effects, compression and eq but it was not due to any of that. Only if I deleted both audio tracks would the CPG function. These tracks are the original .mp4 files from the cameras.
Next I rendered my audio track down to a single 16 bit .wav file and used it instead of the original. Now we have a working system with a pretty fast CGP. Even previewing in Good(Full) hence not using the proxys was possible.

I can see how the audio tracks might cause delays when scrubbing and scrolling through (which it didn't) but I cannot see why it would affect opening and using the colour grading panel. It does make sense to split the video and audio into separate streams but usually there is no need. The audio has to be extracted from a big .MP4, 20GB in my case, somehow. So when a video proxy is created maybe an audio proxy in the form of a separate .wav file should be createdas well.
Any ideas anyone?

 

Last changed by paul-marshall on 9/18/2023, 8:40 AM, changed a total of 3 times.

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

john_dennis wrote on 9/18/2023, 10:24 AM

@paul-marshall said: "These tracks are the original .mp4 files from the cameras.
Next I rendered my audio track down to a single 16 bit .wav file and used it instead of the original. Now we have a working system with a pretty fast CGP. Even previewing in Good(Full) hence not using the proxys was possible.

I can see how the audio tracks might cause delays when scrubbing and scrolling through (which it didn't) but I cannot see why it would affect opening and using the colour grading panel. It does make sense to split the video and audio into separate streams but usually there is no need. The audio has to be extracted from a big .MP4, 20GB in my case, somehow. So when a video proxy is created maybe an audio proxy in the form of a separate .wav file should be created as well.

Any ideas anyone?"

SWAG

If your audio tracks are literally the original camera files, then Vegas has to decode the video and audio to play the audio track. That would add significant load to the process along with the load of the CGP itself. Extracted .WAV files would be much less load. I suspect an audio track should be ...

...

...

...

...

... well, audio.

/SWAG

paul-marshall wrote on 9/18/2023, 10:46 AM
If your audio tracks are literally the original camera files, then Vegas has to decode the video and audio to play the audio track.

Of course - isnt that what it usually does? Anyway I dont see why that should delay the color grading panel from opening or make it unusable. Do you or anyone else demux into separate audio and video files? I suspect not.
Something is wrong and I dont know it is what but at least I have a work-around.

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

RogerS wrote on 9/18/2023, 11:07 AM

Why audio is causing issues with the color grading panel is strange. I'll keep an eye on it and if others can replicate would be good to get that confirmation here.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 9/18/2023, 1:03 PM

@paul-marshall

Let me ask a clarifying question. You do not have a separate audio track over and above the audio from your original camera audio?

paul-marshall wrote on 9/18/2023, 1:34 PM

@john_dennis
Not specifically. The audio track of one camera is ungrouped from it's corresponding video stream. And while the video stream is chopped up into many bits inter-cut with the other cameras, that sound track is pretty much un edited, its file 20GB of mp4 and lasts 45mins. I see now that a separate .wav audio track does make sense though it might be harder to keep in sync. Doing that does make the CGP work although I dont see why.

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

john_dennis wrote on 9/18/2023, 2:12 PM

Displacing into a 20GB file to create an uninterrupted audio stream while displacing to other parts of the same file to play snippets of video from that and other files can be challenging.

I'd like to see a screenshot of your timeline. Or you could share your .veg file without any media.  I have lots of XAVC media I could use to replace your files.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/18/2023, 3:55 PM

@paul-marshall I find it surprising but maybe you're onto something. Didn't mention it earlier but as soon as I get my camera tracks into alignment, my next step is to do an Audio mix-down which I render to Sony Wave64 24-bit pcm format. After which I replace all the stems and audio tracks from the cameras with the mix-down. Only selecting the camera video tracks to create the multicam track. Thereafter, the audio mix-down is the only active audio track in later stages. Definitely no issue when I mute all the camera audio tracks. Mixdown, Multicam, and Grading stages look like this:

I can always go back to the audio-mix stage to tweak and regenerate the mix-down and the audio track update propagates.

paul-marshall wrote on 9/18/2023, 4:47 PM

This is a screenshot of the whole timeline after the multi-cam edit expanded to multiple tracks. I make extensive use of different window layouts on f keys.
It is a bit more complex than I said because two camera tracks have stills superimposed on them then I did an intermediate render to Pro-res LT. Those files were 80GB each, seemed a good idea at the time! Anyway that doesnt matter because it all worked great, It previews fine. It rendered out to HD and 4K with no issues and more or less finished. No crashes (except using Ttiler Pro 7 but thats another story) the only thing that was a problem was the CGP!
So I now realise that early in the workflow I should finalise the audio track and render that to pcm since it is kind of like the foundation for the whole thing. Still dont see what it's got to do with CGP though.
So when have I have time I'm going to redo it from scratch. Practise makes perfect they say!

 

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

fr0sty wrote on 9/18/2023, 4:52 PM

BUT I did find the Color Grading panel was sluggish or downright unusable. My plan was to sync up my six video tracks then solo each one and do some color grading tweaks before I went to multi-cam edit mode.

IMO this is where you made the mistake, you should do your cutting first, then grade from there. You don't need smooth playback to grade, in fact, I don't play back at all when grading, I pick out still frames from various areas on the timeline and color those until I get a consistent look when sampling frames at various points on the timeline.

My workflow for multicam. Keep in mind, this is for multicam events, where every camera is in the same spot or roughly the same area, so there aren't different scenes in different rooms, for instance, lighting remains mostly consistent except for changes made to the concert lighting rig, or if it's something like a wedding, the sun gradually setting over time:

1. I make proxies for each camera, as I shoot 10 bit 4:2:2 and that decodes slowly.

2. I set preview quality to preview (best) to enable the proxies.

3. I cut my project in multicam mode, no coloring at all done yet.

4. after cutting is done, I set preview quality to best (full), expand the multicam tracks, and then one camera at a time, I open the color grading panel, set it to track mode so it colors every event on each camera's track together, then color correct the cameras to match each other. I do not play the video during this time, as you only need a still frame to color grade, not playing video. I will skip around the timeline to a few different spots to ensure that I don't need to make further tweaks to the color corrections to make them consistently acceptable across time.

5. If the lighting changed during the shoot, like the sun gradually setting, I change the CGP to event mode, and go back and color each event as needed to compensate for color and lighting shifts due to the changing conditions.

6. Once all the camera angles are color corrected to match and have acceptable brightness, contrast, and white balance levels, I change the color grading panel mode to project bus so it colors all tracks at the same time, and I do my final color grade that way. Again, I don't need playback to do this, I color it to where I like it as a still image, then skip around to a few different spots on the timeline where the lighting may have changed, and make sure it still looks good, adjust as needed, and then I'm good to go.

This has worked great for me for years.

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/18/2023, 4:56 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

RogerS wrote on 9/18/2023, 8:52 PM

The OP wasn't complaining about playback performance but rather

The color grading panel took 20 seconds to open and was unusable and another 20 secs to close

The order in which you do color correction doesn't matter if the tool is sluggish and unresponsive. If others are having the same problem we need to understand what triggers it so it can be fixed.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

fr0sty wrote on 9/18/2023, 9:19 PM

In either case:

My plan was to sync up my six video tracks then solo each one and do some color grading tweaks before I went to multi-cam edit mode.

Is not the recommended way to go about it. For performance reasons, it's always best to grade last.

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/18/2023, 9:19 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

mark-y wrote on 9/18/2023, 11:43 PM

This is a screenshot of the whole timeline after the multi-cam edit expanded to multiple tracks. I make extensive use of different window layouts on f keys.
It is a bit more complex than I said because two camera tracks have stills superimposed on them then I did an intermediate render to Pro-res LT. Those files were 80GB each, seemed a good idea at the time! Anyway that doesnt matter because it all worked great, It previews fine. It rendered out to HD and 4K with no issues and more or less finished. No crashes (except using Ttiler Pro 7 but thats another story) the only thing that was a problem was the CGP!
So I now realise that early in the workflow I should finalise the audio track and render that to pcm since it is kind of like the foundation for the whole thing. Still dont see what it's got to do with CGP though.
So when have I have time I'm going to redo it from scratch. Practise makes perfect they say!

 

The way I would go about this (to reduce clogged resources) is to render each of your six source videos with your CGP grading / corrections to lightweight digital intermediates first. Then open these in a fresh Vegas project, create the multicam timeline, and proceed as you have done. This eliminates two bottlenecks; 1) the burden of the source itself and 2) the color grading; the multicam project itself and your overlayed stills are in themselves resource hogs.

a "lightweight digital intermediate" might be MagicYUV, ProRes, XAVC-Intra, or even MPEG-2. Experiment to see which one gives the best performance on your timeline. Expect your intermediate files to be quite large.

paul-marshall wrote on 9/19/2023, 4:59 AM

Thanks guys for all your advice on multi-cam and color grading workflow. Not something I've ever done much of and now have a better idea what to do.

It does seem to be a good idea to mix audio down to a pcm track prior to multi-cam editing. The main advantage of keeping video & audio streams together is that they will always be in sync, or if one gets moved accidently is easy to restore. But that will be lost in multi-cam anyway.

@fr0sty What do you do for the audio tracks?

Windows 11.0 (64-bit)
Intel® Core™ i9 Eight-Core Processor i9-11900K (3.5GHz) 16MB Cache
Motherboard GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC (C (LGA1200, USB 3.2)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (4 x 16GB)
GPU Nvidia GEFORCE RTX3060Ti
I/O drives: Intel SSD PEKNU020TZ 2TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB, Samsung SSD 870 EVO 1TB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 2TB, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
Audio: Soundblaster Z SE
Cameras: Sony AX-700, A7-IV, RX10-II
Vegas Po 21 latest version. Vegas user since V10

 

fr0sty wrote on 9/19/2023, 1:14 PM

Other than re-areange them so it's cam 1, cam2, cam 3, cam 4, cam 5, cam 6, cam audio 1, cam audio 2, etc... I prefer to keep my audio and video tracks grouped together, I don't do any mixdowns or anything like that until final render... But if it's helping your performance, by all means go ahead and do that.