New GPU for 4K60 ?

LuluBent wrote on 6/23/2022, 8:59 AM

Hello 

I still have Vegas Pro 18. I may upgrade to version 20 this year. 

Will a newer, more powerful GPU be helpful? Mine is from 2016.

I added the TV simulator effect. 

In preview:

In 4K60 it's not smooth at all (unless I disable the TV simulator).
In 1080p25 it's ok. 

I'm set to full preview. 

Will another GPU allow me to have the same result in 4K60 as in 1080p25?
Or not really?

Thanks a lot!

Sincerely. 
 

 

Comments

RogerS wrote on 6/23/2022, 9:07 AM

What is your CPU and GPU exactly?
What is your media? (Use this to answer: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/)

LuluBent wrote on 6/23/2022, 11:59 AM

CPU : AMD Ryzen 9 3900 X

GPU : AMD Radeon Pro WX 5100 8 Go

RAM : 32 Go

Format                                   : MPEG-4
Profil du format                         : Base Media / Version 1
Identifiant du codec                     : mp41 (mp41)
Taille du fichier                        : 1,69 Gio
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Débit global moyen                       : 60,0 Mb/s
Date d'encodage                          : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
Date de marquage                         : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
xyz                                      : +47.1504+006.7187/

Vidéo
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Profil du format                         : Main@L5.1@Main
Identifiant du codec                     : hvc1
Identifiant du codec/Info                : High Efficiency Video Coding
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Débit                                    : 59,7 Mb/s
Largeur                                  : 3 840 pixels
Hauteur                                  : 2 160 pixels
Format à l'écran                         : 16/9
Type d'images/s                          : Constant
Images par seconde                       : 59,940 (60000/1001) Im/s
Espace de couleurs                       : YUV
Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance   : 4:2:0
Profondeur des couleurs                  : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Image)                       : 0.120
Taille du flux                           : 1,69 Gio (100%)
Titre                                    : GoPro H.265
Langue                                   : Anglais
Date d'encodage                          : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
Date de marquage                         : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
Gamme de couleurs                        : Full
Coordonnées de chromaticité              : BT.709
Caractéristiques du transfert            : BT.709
Coefficients de la matrice               : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Identifiant du codec                     : mp4a-40-2
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Type de débit                            : Constant
Débit                                    : 192 kb/s
Débit nominal                            : 48,0 kb/s
Canaux                                   : 2 canaux
Channel layout                           : L R
Echantillonnage                          : 48,0 kHz
Images par seconde                       : 46,875 Im/s (1024 SPF)
Mode de compression                      : Avec perte
Taille du flux                           : 5,48 Mio (0%)
Titre                                    : GoPro AAC  
Langue                                   : Anglais
Date d'encodage                          : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
Date de marquage                         : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32

Autre #1
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Type de débit                            : Constant
Images par seconde                       : 59,940 (60000/1001) Im/s
Time code de la première image           : 18:59:24:22
time code, calculé                       : Oui
Titre                                    : GoPro TCD  
Langue                                   : Anglais
Date d'encodage                          : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32
Date de marquage                         : UTC 2022-06-15 18:41:32

Autre #2
Type                                     : meta
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Type de débit                            : Variable
Duration_LastFrame                       : -552

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 6/23/2022, 12:26 PM

I get the best results for hevc 4k60 4:2:0 footage using high-end amd gpus like the Radeon 7, Vega64, 5700xt, or 6900xt for encoding/processing together with an igpu for decoding. In my xeon machine which does not have an igpu, much like your Ryzen, I threw in a 2nd less expensive gpu for decoding: an Nvidia 1660. That helps allot. But 4k60 footage is tough no matter what you do. Consider using proxies. Media substitution is less convenient but seems to work even better.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon XF605 & XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (igpu Intel UHD-630 {.8935} & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti {512.96}) Win11
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (igpu AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & integrated Intel HD630 {.9415}) Win11
Workstation: i9-11900k 64gb (Sapphire ToxicLC 6900xt 16 gb {Adrenalin 22.5.1 } & Intel UHD750 {.1994} ) Win11
Workstation: i9-9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb {22.5.1} & integrated Intel UHD630 {.1994}) Win10

Workstation2: XeonE5-1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb {22.5.1} & Nvidia GTX-1660 8gb {512.96}) Win10
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3}) Win10
currently active Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19.643.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm
LutP utility to create OpenFX xml preset files for the Vegas LUT fx in Vegas 17, 18, & 19.

 

Gid wrote on 6/23/2022, 12:30 PM

@LuluBent Hi, i don't think there's any benefit to having it set @ Preview - Full if you're using the preview/display window in the 'standard' layout, (not full screen)

on my 4k 32" screen i have it set to Preview or Good - Half for 4k media, that way the image Vegas is fitting in the display window is slightly bigger that the actual Display size, so if anything the image projected by Vegas is being downscaled to fit in & therefore to my eyes no loss in quality, if i set it to Preview Quarter then there is loss in quality because the image projected by Vegas is being upscaled/stretched to fit in the display window,

Having it set to Preview - Full Vegas is projecting 4k but then having to downscale it to fit in the display but is still working/projecting in 4k & so creating the lag in playback, if that makes sense,

I try to make the Preview size slightly bigger than the Display size, my Display size is 1552x837 so HD 1920x1080 files i have at Preview - Full because the projected mage is only slightly bigger than the display window, UHD 3840x2160 i have at Preview - Half,

There's prob a lot more to it & i'm prob talking b*llocks but it works for me

Last changed by Gid on 6/23/2022, 12:38 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Magix Movie Edit Pro Premium, from 2004-ish - Latest version,
Vegas Pro/Post 19 (Latest build), HitFilm Pro,  
Boris Continuum, Sapphire, Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans

I'm 53, I've been a UK joiner for 37yrs, apprentice trained & time served, I make videos about my work & post them on Youtube so that i can share what I've learnt over the yrs,
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G

todd-b wrote on 6/23/2022, 8:55 PM

CPU : AMD Ryzen 9 3900 X

GPU : AMD Radeon Pro WX 5100 8 Go

RAM : 32 Go

 

Vidéo
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Profil du format                         : Main@L5.1@Main
Identifiant du codec                     : hvc1
Identifiant du codec/Info                : High Efficiency Video Coding
Durée                                    : 4 min 2s
Débit                                    : 59,7 Mb/s
Largeur                                  : 3 840 pixels
Hauteur                                  : 2 160 pixels
Format à l'écran                         : 16/9
Type d'images/s                          : Constant
Images par seconde                       : 59,940 (60000/1001) Im/s
Espace de couleurs                       : YUV
Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance   : 4:2:0
Profondeur des couleurs                  : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Image)                       : 0.120
Taille du flux                           : 1,69 Gio (100%)
Titre                                    : GoPro H.265

It depends on the format of your HEVC, upload a sample if you want me to try it with a mid range GPU, there are others here with high range GPU.

Vegas has very poor support for HEVC via SO4 GPU decoding. the main problem is often not your GPU at all, but rather Vegas software is limited to using a single CPU core. Having said that, some DJI files don't contain B frames and the play very well in Vegas, but the ones that contain B frames and use HEVC play very poorly for everyone at 4K60.

Although I think you're saying it does play smoothly at 4K60 without an effect called TV simulator. Maybe a better GPU could help but I have a 3080, the fx is not fully using it, and playback is 5-8fps. I think it's just a badly optimized FX

Gid wrote on 6/23/2022, 9:44 PM

@LuluBent @todd-b @Howard-Vigorita 

Playback never reached full fps but the RAM just kept going up,

after removing TV Simulator it stayed high & very very slowly went down even after starting a new project & removing all temp files

putting the HEVC 60fps back on the timeline, adding Proxy let it play at full fps in Preview - Half but not in Preview - Full, again the RAM is continuously rising

PS only closing Vegas cleared the RAM

Last changed by Gid on 6/23/2022, 9:45 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Magix Movie Edit Pro Premium, from 2004-ish - Latest version,
Vegas Pro/Post 19 (Latest build), HitFilm Pro,  
Boris Continuum, Sapphire, Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans

I'm 53, I've been a UK joiner for 37yrs, apprentice trained & time served, I make videos about my work & post them on Youtube so that i can share what I've learnt over the yrs,
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G

todd-b wrote on 6/23/2022, 10:03 PM

@LuluBent @todd-b @Howard-Vigorita 

Playback never reached full fps but the RAM just kept going up,

@Gid This filter is one of the most interesting examples between using BEST/FULL and BEST/HALF.

The difference I see is full playback speed with HALF, but 5-8fps on FULL. I don't think I"ve seen such a dramatic difference in performance and having preview for a 4K video at best quality 1080P isn't a big deal, the most sensible setting for many of us

@LuluBent if you're NOT getting playback in the 50+fps at BEST/HALF maybe a more powerful GPU would help, your CPU is fine

Gid wrote on 6/23/2022, 10:06 PM

@todd-b Yep like i wrote earlier, i don't see the difference in quality with the preview at (half) 1080 compared to full, this is one fx i won't be using,

Magix Movie Edit Pro Premium, from 2004-ish - Latest version,
Vegas Pro/Post 19 (Latest build), HitFilm Pro,  
Boris Continuum, Sapphire, Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans

I'm 53, I've been a UK joiner for 37yrs, apprentice trained & time served, I make videos about my work & post them on Youtube so that i can share what I've learnt over the yrs,
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G

RogerS wrote on 6/24/2022, 12:05 AM

Hi Gid, could you add your system to your signature? If I remember it's a very high-end system so if it's not smooth there, no system is likely to playback with this Fx smoothly.

3POINT wrote on 6/24/2022, 12:15 AM

What sense does it make to edit in 4k and to destroy the picture quality with an FX like TV simulator and asking for a smooth full preview of that FX?

gabgilson wrote on 6/24/2022, 12:56 AM

Ryzen 5900 and AMD 6700xt GPU here, a good value combo (with current prices anyway). My render speeds are near the top of the benchmark lists, but I have finally given up expecting smooth timeline playback for anything above 4k 24fps. Proxies are a great solution - they don't really take long to make (once you plan in the workflow) and having instant timeline playback is so much more creative than the stutters and delays without them. I tried just doing proxies for the 60fps stuff, but as soon as I start having overlapping clips, I need them for 24fps also.

Once generated, set preview window to 'preview-full' to get it to switch to proxies. Go back to Good or Best to see it with the original quality media for grading. I'm telling myself this as much as anyone else - I still have a weird legacy 'proxies are boring' attitude - but it makes no sense. Proxies are great!

todd-b wrote on 6/24/2022, 1:56 AM

What sense does it make to edit in 4k and to destroy the picture quality with an FX like TV simulator and asking for a smooth full preview of that FX?

@3POINT The more interesting question is why does TV Simulator FX behave so poorly at 4K, but works great at 1080P. I don't know the history of this filter but it may be very old, and never meant for higher than 1080P, while as an example Defocus works great at 4K, but requires heavy GPU processing.

I would guess people with stronger GPU's such as AMD 6900XT, Nvidia 3080ti, 3090 will get the same poor playback of TV SIMULATOR, when viewing 4K60P media in BEST/FULL, but they will have better frame rate from DEFOCUS, because DEFOCUS is properly optimized for modern GPU's, TV SIMULATOR is not.

So although the frame rate is similar for both, I think it most likely I am running out of GPU for DEFOCUS, it's my fault, not so for TV SIMULATOR

LuluBent wrote on 6/24/2022, 8:02 AM

By setting it to quarter preview, it's much more acceptable.

That said, my GPU has no problem playing the original 4K60 video.
This is a Vegas problem. 
 

 

3POINT wrote on 6/24/2022, 10:37 AM

By setting it to quarter preview, it's much more acceptable.

That said, my GPU has no problem playing the original 4K60 video.
This is a Vegas problem. 
 

 

My PC has also no problem playing 4k50/60 in preview best full. Since the "old" TV simulator FX is NOT a GPU accelerated FX, I don't expect smooth preview when using this FX. For smooth preview of such FX, I just select preview best auto and everything looks fine again.

LuluBent wrote on 6/24/2022, 3:23 PM

Yes I think it's because the FX is not accelerated by the GPU. 

todd-b wrote on 6/24/2022, 8:55 PM
 

 

My PC has also no problem playing 4k50/60 in preview best full. Since the "old" TV simulator FX is NOT a GPU accelerated FX, I don't expect smooth preview when using this FX.

At 4K there's a lot of 'gpu noise' shown in the GPU graph which gives an appearance of GPU processing, but at 1080P it goes away. Looking at CPU instead it looks like a single threaded/core fx, and that's causing the slow down. it 's not multi threaded