I just tried AVC encoding, same experience as you it works fine, so if we assume they use the same recording technique then Vegas is compatible, it just doesn't like the AV1 version. This may be something simple they can easily fix. I noticed it creates variable frame rate encodings though, better of using OBS

sample file

https://we.tl/t-Z0CIlLekGZ

“AOMedia Video 1 (AV1) is an open, royalty-free video coding format initially designed for video transmissions over the Internet.”

With decades of history of acquisition codecs to be used for editing, I’m struggling to understand why Magix is being asked to decode and operate efficiently with video formats that are specifically targeted for delivery.

Is it just cool to say “I’m using AV1!”?

I’m wondering how movie makers ever got anything out the door, much less won an Academy Award with all their trailing-edge methods.

 

Is it just cool to say “I’m using AV1!”?

@john_dennis It's big advantage is high quality at lower bitrates, out performing AVC and HEVC, which makes it ideal for screen recording and streaming. When you think about Vegas users of 2024, a very large user percentage are gamers screen recording.

Having said that though, an interesting thing has happened with HEVC lately, it has become commercially viable where apparently it wasn't before. Can stream to YouTube with it, TikTok now encodes in HEVC and Twitch are currently testing HEVC streams.

It may be that the future obsolesce of HEVC caused by AV1 resulted in wider adoption of HEVC, which is likely to continue, so if nothing else, that's what you have to thank AV1 for.

Currently one phone model shoots AV1, which is somewhere short of a mandate. We'll see.

GPU makers are driving adoption as they support capture of it with their software and also enabled hardware decoding of it. As Magix appears to work closely with Intel and NVIDIA it's no surprise VEGAS supports what they've already implemented in hardware.

I agree with @john_dennis that AV1 is a delivery codec, good quality at low bitrates (high compression), nice for streaming and video delivery platforms. For editing, a production codec, high quality at high bitrates (low compression), is recommended. It's also possible to capture screen recordings with production codecs, so no direct reason to complain that AV1 is not editable in Vegas. Just use the right codec when you want to edit your videos.

Apparently, Paul Pacifico thinks there is a distinction between video formats based on intended use.

For what I do its, literally screen recording.

AMD and Nvidia software solutions are the fastest, least resource consuming, as the encoders / decoders are hardware on the card. AMD ReLive Or the Nvidia App / GeForce experience

Nether offers native prores / uncompressed recording. The software that does from OBS to MSI Afterburner, they steals FPS, even with uncompressed video.

So I'm stuck with AVC/HVEC or AV1. Since AMD's ReLive peaked at 100 Mbps, regardless of encoder, AV1 was FAR sharper and better looking over the equal bitrate AVC recording.

Now that im back on the Nvidia app, The only solution i have with the Nvidia app is to just record some massive 150 Mbps+ AVC mp4, when the AV1 would be smaller and yet still have better PQ at 100 Mbps. I do alot of digital zoom in post, AV1 is always cleaner with far less macroblocks over AVC.

Luckily, i don't have any footage i have to worry about remuxing as its all been test video. But this is a feature I would like to see fixed.

@RogJ if your setup is high performance enough, capture hevc which is similar in quality to av1 but more mature. Av1 and hevc require similar resources for playback. The only real advantage of av1 is that unlike hevc and avc, it's royalty free. But the consortiums do not impose royalty and reporting requirements on end users, so that won't impact you directly till all those in your workflow drop hevc in favor of free av1. Ha, ha, maybe camera, gpu, and Vegas prices will drop too when that happens.

Btw, is the switch from a 7900xtx to a 4090 really an upgrade? I have a 6900xt and a 4090 myself, both aio, and I have yet to find any project of mine that runs faster on the Nvidia. The Nvidia does better with really short clips in Vegas but not so much with my projects which are typically full concerts with one or two 4k hevc cameras and maybe a few hd avc in addition.

@RogJ if your setup is high performance enough, capture hevc which is similar in quality to av1 but more mature. Av1 and hevc require similar resources for playback. The only real advantage of av1 is that unlike hevc and avc, it's royalty free. But the consortiums do not impose royalty and reporting requirements on end users, so that won't impact you directly till all those in your workflow drop hevc in favor of free av1. Ha, ha, maybe camera, gpu, and Vegas prices will drop too when that happens.

Btw, is the switch from a 7900xtx to a 4090 really an upgrade? I have a 6900xt and a 4090 myself, both aio, and I have yet to find any project of mine that runs faster on the Nvidia. The Nvidia does better with really short clips in Vegas but not so much with my projects which are typically full concerts with one or two 4k hevc cameras and maybe a few hd avc in addition.

The Nvidia App doesn't give a a choice, AVC/HVEC is an auto toggle depending criteria. It says that 4k+ res or HDR is supposed to toggle HEVC, but its only recording in AVC when i do my 4k records. Im stuck with running High bitrate AVC. I got the space and hardware is up to it. Just doesn't look as nice as AV1 in the details.

On the topic of the GPU upgrade, I am using third party app, Reshade, to further enhance the graphics of a game for the purposes machinima. The way it injects itself into the app, its very inefficient from a performance standpoint and still has quirks.

At 4k and graphics at full bore, the 7900xtx got me to the low 20s on average, but with the extra grunt of the 4090, i can at least hit a Vsync smooth 30 fps, thus i don't have to worry so much about AI interpolation of frames with every record.

Not to mention Micro Center offered a fair trade-in value on the 7900xtx, considering it drop value like a rock, in comparison to nvidia, i felt it was worth it.

 

Apparently, Paul Pacifico thinks there is a distinction between video formats based on intended use.

Is this meaningful though?

If it were we wouldn't be editing the "output format" AVC either.

As my Sony cameras shoot it, my GPUs decode it and VEGAS works fine with it I have no desire to transcode everything to a intermediate editing format for no benefit.

Editing performance of AV1 in VEGAS is actually pretty good in the limited tests I did.

@RogJ if your setup is high performance enough, capture hevc which is similar in quality to av1 but more mature. Av1 and hevc require similar resources for playback. The only real advantage of av1 is that unlike hevc and avc, it's royalty free.

@Howard-Vigorita I mentioned what the advantage to AV1 is, higher quality at lower bitrates, nothing competes with AV1. Also in regards to the Nvidia screen recoder it doesn't do HEVC other than for 4K/8K, so options are AV1 or AVC for most people.

@john_dennis @3POINT Let me show you Vegas and AV1 in action, then tell me it's not an editing codec.

This is 4K60, but towards the end where you see the speedup it's playing at 240fps, and I've included an edit point at 240fps. AV1 does great. Keep in mind this is a GOP of 60 using OBS, the Nvidia app uses a GOP of 30 so playback would be expected to be even better across edit points, it's VFR does not affect performance in Vegas.

The idea that you guys are trying to limit AV1 support in VP21 and VP22 is extraordinary, Nvidia's AV1 works fine in other editors, if developers feed off the energy of it's beta testers I"M now better understanding why Vegas has the worst support for codecs of any modern editors.

Apparently, Paul Pacifico thinks there is a distinction between video formats based on intended use.

Is this meaningful though?

If it were we wouldn't be editing the "output format" AVC either.

@RogerS I figured he was drinking, the logical extension of his remark that he also wants to see AVC and HEVC banned from Vegas

Editing performance of AV1 in VEGAS is actually pretty good in the limited tests I did.

It's ignorance on show and sad to see from someone as esteemed as he.

I mentioned what the advantage to AV1 is, higher quality at lower bitrates, nothing competes with AV1. Also in regards to the Nvidia screen recoder it doesn't do HEVC other than for 4K/8K, so options are AV1 or AVC for most people.

@Todd-AO Actually, the intent of av1 is to serve as a royalty-fee replacement for hevc. That's not likely to happen, however, till it starts showing up in cameras as a media format. Quality and size is close enough to hevc but does not surpass it on either count. If hevc is unavailable for screen capture with the Nvidia app, OBS can do it.

@Howard-Vigorita isn't it something like 90% of new consumer GPU's bought are Nvidia now, I see shadowplay recordings all the time, AV1 should just work in Vegas, users shouldn't have to go to a forum to find out how to modify their recording to work or be told to use other software.

I personally don't have a use for Nvidia app/shadowplay except for what @RogerS just brought up, OBS does slow game play and Vegas benchmarks down, and it looks like RS has tested Nvidia app, and idoesn't do the same, so now I do have a use for it, and would like trouble free use of AV1

Someone should post a downloadable Nvidia av1 sample... maybe developers will see it and do something about it. Don't have ShadowPlay or the new app myself.

i was about to add, that since OBS is a compositor, it does consume GPU resources.

As stated, because of how Reshade can easily eat into the frames of a game aswell, at worse 40-50% FPS drop, the trade off being enhanced graphics.

Honestly, if i turn off Reshade, i would be well over 60 fps, but the game would look rather ugly and my machinima would look unremarkable compared to what other players do.

At full tilt, i hover between 20-30 fps. I tried to use OBS Combined with reshade, i drop recording frames and FPS drops worsen further as its fighting for resources too.

OBS is not compatible with my setup, when I use Reshade. I cant give up Reshade because its critical to my work. I can't stress enough, Im stuck with the native graphic card recorders.

@Howard-Vigorita This is AV1 vs HEVC at lower bitrates that would be used for streaming. It's 1080P60

AV1 always wins, just not to the degree I thought.

@RogJ 

The people on this forum are users. Developers stop by from time to time, but, if you're looking for a Vegas Creative Software solution, you need to submit a feature request or just wait. I suspect, in the fullness of time, the developers will attempt to add full support for Nvidia hardware. If you want whatever assistance the lowly members of the forum might offer:

• Submit a Mediainfo report for the AMD AV1 file that works and for the Nvidia AV1 file that is problematic.
• It would be better to upload a sample of each type of file to a cloud share site, share and post the link here on the forum. Others with different hardware can use their tools to analyze the difference(s) between the implementations.

Here, I'll get you started. Here is the Mediainfo report for my OBS recording using these settings.

General
Complete name                            : E:\OBS Captures\2024-07-06 19-26-04.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/av01/iso2/mp41)
File size                                : 72.3 MiB
Duration                                 : 2 min 47 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 3 620 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS
Writing application                      : Lavf60.16.100

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AV1
Format/Info                              : AOMedia Video 1
Format profile                           : Main@L5.0
Codec ID                                 : av01
Duration                                 : 2 min 45 s
Bit rate                                 : 3 217 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 19.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 2 560 pixels
Height                                   : 1 440 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 0)
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.029
Stream size                              : 63.5 MiB (88%)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : av1C

Audio #1
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 2 min 47 s
Source duration                          : 2 min 47 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 216 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 576 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 4.32 MiB (6%)
Source stream size                       : 4.32 MiB (6%)
Default                                  : Yes
Alternate group                          : 1

Audio #2
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 2 min 47 s
Source duration                          : 2 min 47 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 216 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 576 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 4.30 MiB (6%)
Source stream size                       : 4.30 MiB (6%)
Default                                  : No
Alternate group                          : 1

Full Disclosure

I don't currently have an AMD or Nvidia video adapter in this machine.

I don't play video games.

I never use cameras or screen capture formats that record audio to lossy codecs such as AC3, AAC, etc.

That's one reason that I use Apple Pro Res.

This recording opens and plays well in Vegas Pro 21-315. Here is the OBS recording overhead with the machine in my signature.

@RogerS

I use XAVC from Sony camera without the use of an intermediate. I can remember when that wasn't true.

@Todd-AO said: "I figured he was drinking, the logical extension of his remark that he also wants to see AVC and HEVC banned from Vegas"

Thank you for your concern about the possibility of me falling off the wagon

I have a folder on my ARCHIVE disk called "D:\Vegas Forum\Written, But Not Posted".

You can be confident that if I posted something on the forum, it was intentional, and I already bypassed the opportunity to just add it to that folder.

@john_dennis Just kidding, but AV1 has a place in editors, and edits very smoothly, just look at this scrubbing action. Unfortunatly I can not force the Nvidia app to encode 4K, it will only do the 1440P of my monitor and I've had to remux it for Vegas, so it's a 1440P file in a 4K project, but the original scrubs like this in Resolve.

May not be so obvious to see, but Vegas responds instantly, buttery smooth.

Apparently, Paul Pacifico thinks there is a distinction between video formats based on intended use.

OMG, I have been editing in a wrong video format all those years!

XAVC straight from the RX10M1, M3 and now M4...