"BD prices have dropped at an accelerated rate BECAUSE of hd dvd. "But they are STILL much to high to even THINK about competing with dvd.... and THAT'S where the real war is. BD was just plain not ready for market.... they were forced on to the scene by HD DVD because hd dvd WAS and IS ready for market. HD DVD IS in a position to take on dvd in every way, shape, and form.... including price. BD was not ready before, and it is not ready now. Although I must say, there are some great BD player sales going on right now. Stores are desperately trying to unload their BD player stock before Oct 31... after that they're pretty much junk."

Blink,

Why do you continue with the pricing rants? There are HD-DVD players that cost over $699, while Sony has Blue-Ray players that cost $499.

If you are talking about disc costs... The Blue-Ray disc for "300" cost me $24.99, while the HD-DVD version cost $34.99.

Yes... the AVS forum is pretty good. It's a science forum. It has a rather large number of sub forums covering a lot of topics.... HD DVD/BD is just a small part. The traffic flow is ABSOLUTELY HUGE. They have a staggering user base... don't know what the exact numbers are, but you can see the viewing stats on the side once you enroll.

"Why do you continue with the pricing rants?"

It's ALWAYS been my feeling that price will settle this at the end of the day. HD DVD has a large price range... as does BD. HD's prices however dip MUCH lower than BD.

HD DVD (and blu ray for that matter) don't have a lot of control over movie prices. That's set by the studios. Just a guess but HD DVD at present contains a lot more than BD hence the price increase.

"HD DVD has a large price range... as does BD. HD's prices however dip MUCH lower than BD."

I guess we need to compare apples to apples then. What do the "cheap" HD-DVD players offer vs. the "expensive" HD-DVD Players, and... lets compare that to the "cheap" Blue-Ray players.

That's set by the studios. Just a guess but HD DVD at present contains a lot more than BD hence the price increase.

But HD DVD at present is incapable of matching BD's capacity.

Regardless to the price of HD DVD players there is a certain hardware minimums that must be met so they all come across the same from a minimum standpoint. From the higher end they have things like analog audio inputs. higher end remotes larger HDDs.... the normal stuff. The problem with BD is that there ARE NO cheap players. Not withstanding, MOST of the people that own both BD and HD DVD are claiming no difference in the quality of the movies

And capacity is a moot issue as well. The studios have proven that the movies work on HD DVD just as well as BD

look.... your argument isn't with me.... go tell all the people that are causing this HD DVD spike. If you can convince them that quality and capacity are by far the more important things than price.... then hey.... all the power to ya! Unless of course you want to bury your head in the sand and convince yourself that this spike is not real

Blink, last week BR outsold HD more than 2:1. The week before it was also 2:1. In fact, in the past few months, DESPITE CHEAP HD PLAYERS, BR has only dipped below 2:1 one time. And even then it was only by a couple of percentage points.

So here's what we know:
1) No matter what HD-DVD throws out there, BR has always won.

2) Despite the supposed spike in HD last week, BR's percentage went UP (to 71%).

3) There are no indications so far (consumer sales or manufacturers) that BR is slowing down.

4) The cool features of HD-DVD, which BluRay can also do, or will be able to shortly, are not a selling point to the public. No HD disc that has those features has outsold the BR version.

None of those statements are based on what "should" happen or what will happen if "x" happens. And they're not based on who has the best product or who I want to win. They're based on actual sales.

PS: When I said your paper was wrong, I specifically said it was in regard to player sales. So nice try about bringing MS into it. :-)

"No matter what HD-DVD throws out there, BR has always won."
=====================================================
Things are looking a bit different for BD with each passing day!

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

These graphs were a total disaster for HD DVD up until a few days ago.
Anything can happen FW... maybe BD will be "dead by Christmas" :)

"2) Despite the supposed spike in HD last week, BR's percentage went UP (to 71%)."
Last Week??? No, you don't understand.... it's STILL going on.

3) There are no indications so far (consumer sales or manufacturers) that BR is slowing down.
They don't have to slow down.... because HD DVD is ramping up!

"4) The cool features of HD-DVD, which BluRay can also do, or will be able to shortly, are not a selling point to the public."
Well, if this is so unimportant, then why is BD adding a spec change to include ??? Can you say..... SCARED!


In my eyes FW this spike (that continues) is PROOF that HD DVD is being held back by little more than studio balance. This is the ONLY thing that BD has over on HD DVD, and the consumer is NOT thus far been given a voice on the issue.... That'll change pretty soon.

"look.... your argument isn't with me"

Argument?

According to you...

*BD's outselling HD-DVD doesn't matter.

*BD's larger capacity over HD-DVD doesn't matter

*BD's selling at a lower price point than HD-DVD's doesn't matter

*Blue-Ray disc players are cheaper than some of the high end HD-DVD players that offer comparable features, again - doesn't matter.

I don't know what there is to argue with you about, no matter how obvious something is in favor of BD, you find a way of spinning it in favor of HD-DVD or you simply dismiss it.

@zstevek

I don't know what there is to argue with you about, no matter how obvious something is in favor of BD, you find a way of spinning it in favor of HD-DVD or you simply dismiss it.

zstevek,

you hit the nail in the head.

blink3times is a typical HD DUD zealot like many of those on AVS forums who spinning FUD and lies about Blu-ray.

The AVS forum is a huge database of technical problems discussed by ordinary people with all sorts of electronic products. It is current and often has improper usage of technical terms but it is so huge one can get a very good idea of a particular product's performance in the real world. The examples would be the latest LCD problems of fixed banding, burned pixels, ghosting, and others. My only complaint is the posting of pictures. Klipsch is the best website for posting pictures as you just use one click and they are posted, (downloaded from your harddrive to the Klipsch website). Don't know why Sony doesn't do the same thing instead of having you post to a website somewhere else. I don't like to jump through hoops to post pictures.
PS: To me Vegas 8 is like an elixer that soothes the soul.
JJK

" you find a way of spinning it in favor of HD-DVD or you simply dismiss it."
===========================================================
You mean much the same you are doing with me?

Point of fact... HD DVD activity is DEFINITELY on the rise and it's on the rise in no small way.

This spike is PROOF that there is a lot of interest in HD DVD and it's the studio's standing in the way. If there was no interest, you would not have seen a spike.

It was claimed that HD DVD would be "dead by Christmas".... well... not by a long shot. HD DVD is alive and well ***IN SPITE*** of the heavy studio support that BD has. One would have figured that if BD was as good as you claim, BD would have won by now.... it hasn't. So why is this war still on if BD is so good and they have the majority of studio support???

Now here's a spin on words if I ever saw one: "*Blue-Ray disc players are cheaper than some of the high end HD-DVD players that offer comparable features, again - doesn't matter.".... and I am not even sure what your point is on this? If you're saying that capacity and high end performance are priorities... then I say your DEAD wrong. My guess is that these new Chinese HD DVD players at $199 will prove this anyway over the xmas holidays.

To be frank... I don't know what YOUR argument is... BD was shot down from its perch, plain and simple, and the HD numbers are rising and if BD loses one more studio, like WB.... well let's just say it will be VERY hard to recover, because studio support is about the only thing BD has really going for it.

"blink3times is a typical HD DUD zealot like many of those on AVS forums who spinning FUD and lies about Blu-ray."
==========================================================
I won't bother responding here... you're welcome to call me all the names you want... doesn't bother me.... but I should point out that name callers don't get too much in the way of credibility in the long run

And for your info... the AVS forum is not only respected by both BD/HD DVD goers... but people from MANY different categories. It's a science forum with a rather huge user base. But you are sure free to have your own opinion.

Last Week??? No, you don't understand.... it's STILL going on.
Hello, do you think I'm stupid? I'm pointing out how it's going SO FAR, and I was very clear about that. 71% even AFTER the big announcement. I know it's still going on. Jeez, give me a LITTLE credit, will ya?

Well, if this is so unimportant [cool features], then why is BD adding a spec change to include ??? Can you say..... SCARED!
Oh yeah, they're really scared. Quaking in their boots. You do know that that stuff was planned from the beginning, don't you?

In my eyes FW this spike (that continues) is PROOF that HD DVD is being held back by little more than studio balance.
No, this spike is proof that HD-DVD needed better advertising. Is it a surprise that a product that's all over the news is showing a spike now? But we'll have to see what happens in the coming weeks. Is the spike indicative of a bigger change? I personally don't think so, because BR has the bigger and better movies coming out.

By the way, according to you (before the announcement) HD-DVD was doing fine. Now you're raving about how well it's doing. Seems like you were in denial before and, while the results remain to be seen, I think you're being blindly optimistic now. But we'll have some more sales figures on Sunday night. Will you agree right here, right now that if the BR sales are sill above 60% that the spike for HD wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and maybe was just an illusion, as people were looking into it just out of curiosity after seeing stories on the news?

"simply because of the low cost. I vote with my wallet." Jay, that is the best way to express your choice!. ;-)

<post 160> will we reach the 199 mark?

"dead by Christmas"..Yea, I probably said that or posted a news article stating that. But dead or in a deep coma, HD DVD is not going to be the miracle child this Christmas yet. For all the noise about the 199 player(1080i), no big box retailer has yet announce that they are going to carry it, it fact, there's no proof that its pass FCC standards yet or there's any volume production on the the product.

If Walmart or Sears pick-up this 199 product((1080i)-unknown brand to the customer), the deep coma may look better if there's some cheap HD DVD s to go with that. But if Tosbiha directly introduced the 199 product(1080i), it would probably have a bigger market impact with retailers and customers alike.

The only problem with a retail price of 199, is that the standard model for "money for production cost" required the assembled circuit to cost about 10-13% of retail, so the the electronics is costing $20? blue laser diodes cost $12-18 by themselves in volume. So, it looks like someone is underwriting this product or a new white diode with a filter is in use or a low cost diode,( short life span) or all the above. A 1080i product with a short life span could be a leader product, but the failure rate of these type of products are extremely high, I don't see Toshiba caring for this nor the studios in the early stages. Cheap is not always good for marketing if the returns kills the HD DVD product image.

FW.. .. we can argue this back and forth forever and it won't change anything. The outcome will simply be what it will be.

My opinion is that BD has already lost... they lost right out of the starting gate. There is just simply NO WAY that they can presently compete with dvd. HD DVD is here as I said in spite of the incredible studio support for BD....and the reason for this is quite obvious.... it's the people's choice.... and price along with consumer vote will decide this in the end. The only question in my mind is whether the studios will come to realize this on their own, or be forced by popular vote of the public. That's my opinion and I firmly stick to it.

Obviously you do not agree with my opinion, and that's fine, but if you think I'm going to change mine, you are sadly mistaken. My conviction is about as solid as yours.

There is just simply NO WAY that they can presently compete with dvd.
Don't you understand? It DOESN'T HAVE TO COMPETE WITH DVD. It's not like it's rival companies making BR and DVD. The studios know that high def is the future. And they know that DVD sales are slowing. And they know that people will re-buy lots of titles in high def. And all they have to do is choose to phase out DVD. BR and HD-DVD are not competing with DVD. The studios are just waiting for a knockout, then they'll throw their full weight at the winner.

I love how you think HD-DVD is "the people's choice" even though it's drastically outsold by DVD. Please note that saying BR is winning is not an opinion, it's a fact: it outsells HD-DVD. And saying that people prefer cheaper, while that seems reasonable, is not borne out by the fact that the more expensive format is winning by a mile. You can stick to your opinion all you want; ignore the facts all you want. Go right ahead. But don't mistake your opinion for fact, because it's not. It might change, certainly there'll be at least some kind of HD-DVD spike, but it remains to be seen if it'll last. I say it won't, because Paramount doesn't have important enough titles for it to matter much (again ALL that's ever mentioned is Transformers and Shrek).

blink3times,
Ulead just released a patch (number 2) for MF6+ with option to burn 3X dvd's.
Thought you would like this :)

"I love how you think HD-DVD is "the people's choice" even though it's drastically outsold by DVD. Please note that saying BR is winning is not an opinion, it's a fact: it outsells HD-DVD. And saying that people prefer cheaper,"
=======================================================
It's YOU that doesn't understand FW. You have 2 machines in front of you... a BD and a HD DVD player... and one has almost no studio support... HD DVD (or in other words no movies) compared to the other.... which one are you going to choose? Well it's a no brainer.... you're going to choose the BD player. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you have chosen the one that you prefer. Bd merely has more studio support, therefore more movies AT PRESENT, and it's important to emphasize that because studio support is a very liquid thing.... it could change at any time, as you witnessed with Paramount. I'm of the opinion that THIS is the ONLY thing that bd has going for it, and if the tables were reversed and it was BD with no studio support, it would be game over in pretty fast order because BD does not have much else up its sleeve.

Now the point I'm trying to get at and that you are not listening to is that BD has won nothing yet. They are 700 thousand disks ahead... it's a literal drop in the bucket relative to the amount of potential business out there. Combine that fact with cheap effective machines and a few good movies, and you have a recipe to start pulling studio support away from BD. At the end of the day FW, these studios are businesses and regardless to personal views and feelings, they WILL go where the money is. And this is exactly what Microsoft/Toshiba are betting on.

BD is presently MISSING those "cheap" and "effective" terms from their recipe. Sure you can get more capacity on a BD, Sure you can get a higher bitrate out of a BD player... and these things that sure may attract the cutting edge technology type people, but they are not things that Joe Public is really too interested in. Joe public DOES NOT want to pay a lot of money to watch hi def movies.... not after being spoiled by $30 dvd players. This is evident by the slow speed at which this whole hi def experience is moving.

What can not be ignored here is the spike in HD DVD that is occurring after the Paramount announcement. It is crystal clear that there is genuine interest in HD DVD and that the studios are somewhat responsible for curbing that interest... the spike would not have occurred otherwise. But like Microsoft said.... all ya gotta do is sell enough machines and the studios will start listening. It doesn't matter if BD sells THE SAME amount of machines... The studios will go where the money is. These exclusive studios will AT LEAST start going neutral... and if that happens... BD has all of a sudden lost about the only advantage it has.

"blink3times,
Ulead just released a patch (number 2) for MF6+ with option to burn 3X dvd's.
Thought you would like this :)"
====================================
Thanks for the heads-up... think I'll have a look-see!

No blink. The spike occurred because the news was flooded with HD-DVD stories. That's what got people looking. It's just like advertising a movie. Make the public aware and you'll see results. Again, the spike (if there was one, we'll see on Sunday) is format-irrelevant. If BR was the one in the news then it would have gotten the web site hits.

As for the playing field not being level, with more studios supporting BR, well, even before Paramount's announcement you and other HD folks were saying that didn't matter, that HD would still win. So which is it?

"No blink. The spike occurred because the news was flooded with HD-DVD"stories."
yeah okay... if you say so ;)

even before Paramount's announcement you and other HD folks were saying that didn't matter, that HD would still win. So which is it?

Did you not read what I just finished writing???
IT DOESN'T MATTER. Studios don't lead the people... it's the other way around. The studios presently have the luxury of picking sides... but that luxury, whether you are talking BD or HD DVD will eventually get taken away.... and they will go where the money is.