Render to 4k make artefacts and random dropping frames

Comments

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/8/2023, 7:01 AM

Banding of the S5II has also be confirmed by other users recentyl.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/8/2023, 7:12 AM

Thank you all for trying to help me but there is no fix about this image. I hope that I will get better on mental breakdown and I will start thinking normally but now I am wreck of a man with thinking that I lost so much money...

Hope you recover in a fast and good way. I am sure you will dismiss/sell the camera...

Komaryt wrote on 3/8/2023, 7:14 AM

Thank you all for trying to help me but there is no fix about this image. I hope that I will get better on mental breakdown and I will start thinking normally but now I am wreck of a man with thinking that I lost so much money...

Hope you recover in a fast and good way. I am sure you will dismiss/sell the camera...

its gonna be hard because I bought it with money from grant so now if shop will not change this cameras for R7 with new receipt I am screwed and I have melted money for 2 years (that's how long I need to have company).

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/8/2023, 8:58 AM

Hope you can minimize the difference, and recover from that.

RogerS wrote on 3/8/2023, 11:15 PM

Hello,
I had very hard days and I lost my mind - a nervous breakdown - because of that...

So the thing is. Banding which I had is not because of Vegas settings - just S5 II doesn't have good enough image quality to deliver video without this banding... official panasonic expert statement:

"In my opinion the 72 Mbps coding bitrate is not enough for a professional quality 4K resolution 10 bit color depth video data stream. It is very likely that the banding is generated because of this reason. DaVinci Resolve is a fantastic editing software, I believe it has an algorithm that can reduce the banding effect. Anyway I suggest to use a higher coding bitrate.”

For me it's just stupid saying about "use bigger bitrate" because I was using .mov 150mbps and 200mbps and banding was still there. I tried everything, changing project pixel depth to 32bit, rendering hevc to 10bit and it was still there. Where frame was stable it was not visible but when I move my camera to the left or right it was still there. Some ppl are saying that I use wrong project settings and render settings but for me and my job it is not profitable to edit everything in 32bit depth because 1 minute renders about 10minutes... And I had short period with HEVC format and my clients were not able to open HEVC h.265 files on their TVs so it's dead end for me. The smallest banding is in C4K format but making weddings in this format is suicide with disk spaces for me.

I am in contact with a shop maybe there is a chance that they could replace one month used s5 II to Canon R7 and everything will be alright. On Canon cameras I never had this issues even when image was in 8bit. I had 10bit images from R6/R5 and banding was not visible on it too and I didn't change pixel depth in project settings, I was making everything in 8bit. So for me Panasonic just made something wrong with their camera and they can't fix this... Even youtube has 8bit video so when I render everything in 10bit and upload to youtube there is still banding.

Could you give a sample file with banding we could take a look at? Is it possible to increase exposure slightly and avoid the image falling apart in the shadows? Are there other picture settings that may make this less apparent with your camera?

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with 31.0.101.4091 driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (driver 31.0.101.2115), dual internal SSD (256GB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

Vegas 19.648
Vegas 20.270

VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Todd-A0 wrote on 3/9/2023, 4:44 AM

😊 thank you for your time!

The complains about the slow encoding comes mainly from your side, but before you complained about the slow encoder you complained about the ACES workflow and the low GPU utilization. While that all is fine for me, I wonder what you wish to achieve. The team works on improvements, but what else do you more expect at the moment?

@Wolfgang S. I just showed you a free children's NLE working in 32bit creating HLG 10 bit encodes files in 11 seconds, while Vegas took 1m35 seconds. That's all that needs to be said. I don't think there's anything wrong with the voukoder encoder, I explained previously it acts as a bit bucket, it will collect bits as fast as you can send them, the slow down is in the render engine at 32bit and a further slowdown with ACES, the pipes are too small for 32bit, that's what was being tested here. I ruled out any problem with HEVC/AVC Gpu or CPU decoding when I used the prores422 for testing.

@Komaryt If you haven't already can you upload a short piece of original 10bit camera footage showing the banding problem when you work in 32bit float in Vegas and encode to 10 bit. Upload to a file sharing site. At least let another Vegas user replicate your problem before you think about returning your camera. Wolfgang linked a 8bit youtube encode as proof your camera has a problem, but that is no proof. That might even be your YT account.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 5:18 AM

@Wolfgang S. I just showed you a free children's NLE working in 32bit creating HLG 10 bit encodes files in 11 seconds, while Vegas took 1m35 seconds. That's all that needs to be said.

For me that says, that the one encoder is signifiant faster. And what do you expect me to do?

Wolfgang linked a 8bit youtube encode as proof your camera has a problem, but that is no proof. That might even be your YT account.

I linked that because other users have shown the problem recently. If that is Komryts account, I think he would say so.

Todd-A0 wrote on 3/9/2023, 5:31 AM

 

For me that says, that the one encoder is signifiant faster. And what do you expect me to do?

@Wolfgang S. It's nothing to do with the encoder, that's the whole point of using voukoder hardware encoding. It's as slow as the hardware, and that figure is known, it's much faster then what Vegas can deliver to it. I am thinking there is a language problem, you're not understanding correctly. Lets try and help @Komaryt

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 5:49 AM

There is no language problem. What do you mean by that?

If you test two encoder using the same hardware, and one encoder ist significant slower (here 8,6 times longer), then it is a poor implementation of the encoder in Vegas.

And your assumption, that the video should be from @Komaryt - well: you seems to be right, if one has a more detailed look to this youtube chanel.

Have you performed a google search? There are more then one complain about banding shown by the S5II, what is a pitty since the camera concept of the S5II looks great really. I was thinking about to purchase the S5II X, but with those findings I will wait until we have some reports about the S5II X.

And the point is: it is very unlikely that anybody can help @Komaryt against banding. If that is shown in the original camera footage, and if you cannot increase the data rate, you will not be able to do much. Panasonic can try to solve that with an firmware upate, hopefully. But we as user cannot do a lot about that banding.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 7:56 AM

Reading the comments on youtube, most people say that they have no banding with the S5 II. What is going on here?

Reyfox wrote on 3/9/2023, 8:30 AM

@Wolfgang S. this banding issue with the S5 II is perplexing. Here is a being shot with the camera. Looking at the sky, and everything else, I didn't see any banding. I viewed this in 4K with a UHD 4K LG computer monitor, looking for anything close to banding.

Komaryt wrote on 3/9/2023, 8:31 AM

Hi! Today I receive R7 and look at these results - both projects are 8bit full range. So yeah... If project have the same properties in this cases is it still user error?

R7 clog 10bit



R7 8bit with specially too much contrast to make image fall apart


S5 II 10bit

Reyfox wrote on 3/9/2023, 8:58 AM

I'd still like to have "raw" S5II footage to test myself with different editors on my computer to compare and see if there is any differences.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 9:07 AM

Please understand that is also hard to say something, given the fact that we see both videos and pictures here on 8bit monitors only. To assess the situation, one would need some original footage, must know with what settings the footage was shoot, and need an 8bit/10bit monitor to assess the footage.

Gentlemen, we will not be able to assess this problem here in an appropriate way in the Vegas forum. This is not the right forum to do that. Beside that, we are happy if we can give you tips - but that ist the best we can do.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 12:29 PM

One question is, how the snapshoots were shoot that you have shown here. Using what tool for the snapshoots? what monitor?

And - if you see that banding also if you playback the original and ungraded files on a 10bit monitor, using a10bit display chain.

And if you have used a gray wedge to check, if the display that you have used to check the footage is in the 10 bit really , or the 8 bit mode only.

Such an analysis is not soo simple, as it sounds. Maybe for that reason a lot of people would like to receive a sample, shoot by you with 10bit, to analyse that by themselfes.

Reyfox wrote on 3/9/2023, 1:13 PM

@Wolfgang S., I posted to this video about the banding issue reported here. PhotoJoseph asked for the link to this post. I provided it.

I've shot a lot of 10bit 422 UHD4K and never ever seen any banding. Whether shooting the sky or under any lighting condition. My monitor has 8-bit + Frame Rate Control.

 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/9/2023, 1:28 PM

Yes, it is hard to beliefe that a Panasonic camera generates systematic banding. Given their huge experience in that field (Varicam and so on).

However, it is hard to answer that here really. I would have a true 10bit preview hardware available, but without the original footage it is hard to say something really.

Reyfox wrote on 3/9/2023, 3:15 PM

We did ask for the original footage.... but @Komaryt has moved on to Canon. It still would be good to verify this. Especially knowing the exact camera settings. No one reviewing the camera or post footage has mentioned banding.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 3/9/2023, 7:27 PM

There are some s5ii 10-bit 4k sample clips here.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/15/2023, 6:43 AM

There are some s5ii 10-bit 4k sample clips here.

I downloaded the clips only yesterday, and have checkt that on my 10bit monitor ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG. At least on the first look, I was not able to detect any banding with the files downloaded there. Seems to be all 10bit footage, and there are some shoots in the sky, where banding could have occured. But I have not seen any banding.

It would have been great to have some of the problematic footage by @Komaryt really.

Reyfox wrote on 3/15/2023, 8:28 AM

I too downloaded the S5II and didn't see any banding either on my monitor. Not even a hint of it. And yes, it would have been better if the user supplied the problematic footage.

And since there is a lot of people using this camera, I've not seen much of anything mentioned about banding.