HD-BD?

They can invite all they want... it doesn't mean the other guys will accept.

I think they're all wet on their market analysis, though. I don't think people will be willing to pay more for Blu-Ray than HD-DVD, since any quality differences are imperceptible. And, I don't think HD is really going to take off until monitors and players drop down in price... just like what happened with DVDs. If Sony or Toshiba can't make money making Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players at a lower price, I'm sure there are lots of Chinese companies with knockoffs who would be only too happy to do so.

I've said it before, but out here in the "fly-over country" between the coasts, I don't know ANY individual (as opposed to corporate) who owns an HDTV yet. I certainly don't know anyone who has sprung for an HD player.

Sony should be very careful about taking the marketing approach that watching up-rezzed SD DVDs is "nearly as good" as watching HD, since that could come back and bite them where the sun don't shine. I could apply the same logic to avoid buying Blu-Ray either.

Question:

If Sony did not feel that HD-DVD was any threat, why the invite?

I don't know WHAT the score is!? I do know that Sony has never been very good at sharing the sand box, so to speak.

They did mention objections to HD DVD prices continuing to drop and that this "has to be profitable" to them.

My PURE GUESS would be that Sony is slowly getting pushed into a corner that they do not want to go.... dropping prices. They have made it clear that the profit margin is pretty important to them.

The thing is, Sony's been saying they're open to Toshiba and MS joining them since the beginning. The statement quoted in that link is nothing new. And Toshiba has said they're open to Sony joining them too.

It's a complete non-story, just fodder for the fans of both sides to say "look, it's another sign that we're winning!" For the BR fans they see it as Sony accepting Toshiba's surrender; for the HD fans they see it as Sony panicking.

I've said it before, but out here in the "fly-over country" between the coasts, I don't know ANY individual (as opposed to corporate) who owns an HDTV yet. I certainly don't know anyone who has sprung for an HD player.

I know many who have a HDTV but NOONE that had a HD disc playing device. Everybody has either HD Cable or satellite. I have HD over the air but no HDTV. :) My parents have said, several times, why rent a movie when they can get them in HD over on-demand (another instance if studios shooting themselves in the foot & saying people buy less disc's: no reason to! duh!)

"The thing is, Sony's been saying they're open to Toshiba and MS joining them since the beginning."
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To the best of my knowledge FW, this is not true.

Microsoft has always stated that they are not at war with BD and would enjoy opened doors.... and it has been Sony to refuse. They did an article with Microsoft a short time after the paramount deal and Kevin form Microsoft was happily showing off his BD collection to the reporter at the time. The reporter stated that this is NOT the same attitude that Sony has taken in the past. The article is SOMEWHERE on the avs forum in a thread entitled (I think... can't remember exactly) "WE are not at war with Blu ray"

Notwithstanding... it is becoming clear that this is a pricing problem For a long time now BDA has been saying that BD is a better quality... NOW.... they are saying that the formats are very similar and that Toshiba MUST be subsidizing their machines.


This from Frank Simonis, the chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association,:

""Both format players use the same back-end decoders so the video and the audio is nearly similar. And I can't imagine that an optical mechanism for HD DVD and Blu-ray has a big spread in cost - the expensive part is the blue laser. Technology-wise, there is not a major difference."

You can find it here:http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/high-definition/news/blu-ray-boss-hd-dvd-is-not-good-enough?articleid=80768583

Blink, I don't have any links, because it's just stuff I remember reading over the past year or so. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying though. What I'm saying is that both sides have said at various points, basically, "we're open to them coming over to our side" or at the very least, "we're open to talking with them about how we can get together in some way." But each time one side says that, the other side refuses.

But it's a big complicated issue and there are any number of reasons why each side is, on the one hand, open to talks with the other side, and on the other hand balks at such talks (or that the talks fizzle). Fans on either side like to look at it simplistically as Sony being bossy jerks, or Toshiba being stubborn, but the reality is much more complex than that, dealing with contracts, licenses, corporate structure, patents, etc.

So again, regardless of whether the offer has been made before by either side, and regardless of whether the other side has turned it down, this current incarnation is no different as is just as much of a non-story.

As for BDA saying that BD is better quality, well, since it allows for more storage, it's certainly *capable* of better quality, because the encodes can be done at a higher bit rate. I'm not saying they *are* just that they *can*.

And I'm still waiting for that HD-DVD spike. What are the HD-DVD fanboys saying about the fact that the spike never happened? Give 'em a big "I told you so" for me, will ya?

Sony invited HD DVD/Toshiba a long, long while back at CES. It was that invitation that led to the infamous shouting/spittle match between Sir Howard and Bill Gates. While this may be a new extension, it's an old story.

The AVS forum experts, at least MS inside posters, state that the BD hardware can read HD DVD because it can track DVD. HD DVD current hardware can not read BD because of the BD focusing lens requirements. So its easly for BD to read HD DVD without any costly hardware changes.

But the snag comes to adding the extra code for HDi and keeping b-java in the players limited firmware. Future stand-alone BD players would easily add more flash compared to re- designing the HD DVD hardware, but dropping HDi MS design control and permit HDi to be written as a "macro set" using B-Java would be better for all, except for MS. BD group has reject HDi outright because of MS and the current EU vote on Open Standards that MS was pushing was defeated yesterday. so I doubt letting HDi be top dog is not in anyone's interest.

DSE, haven't you been told the famous "infamous shouting/spittle match between Sir Howard and Bill Gates" did not happen ;-) by the HD DVD crowd ;-) Just to beat them to the punch and stop the crying foul, would you post a link to one of the many stories in the press about this. ;-)

"Sony invited HD DVD/Toshiba a long, long while back at CES. It was that invitation that led to the infamous shouting/spittle match between Sir Howard and Bill Gates. While this may be a new extension, it's an old story."
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Oh come on... that was back in... what... 2006!? How can you possibly call this an "extension"? A LOT has changed since then!

"of better quality, because the encodes can be done at a higher bit rate. I'm not saying they *are* just that they *can*."
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well, that makes a lot of sense... let's pay a lot of extra money just because it "can".

And the spike... well... this just MAY be part of it. Sony may be coming to the conclusion that they're going to have a tough time competing with HD DVD prices. By the sounds of the article(s)... Sony is having a tough time dropping prices much lower than they are now. Either that or they are more interested in stripping every hard earned dollar that they can away from the consumer.

And the quality... according to Frank Simonis himself:

"Technology-wise, there is not a major difference."

Now if you think you know more than Frank, then I suggest you phone him and demand his job.

But let's go back to a rather simple question that JAY asked: "If Sony did not feel that HD-DVD was any threat, why the invite?"

I am purely guessing here but I think that the management of Sony is looking at this in a "world market" rather than a USA market and they are not happy. China, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, India are all thumbing their noses at Sony and Bluray. They have all come up with their own High Def codecs using DVD standard discs, some of them using Microsoft stuff. The intro of the tripple layer disc will handle an entire film. My "guess" is Sony won't be selling much Bluray outside the USA.
JJK

Well... it looks like Sony is going to TRY and scratch some money together to at least drop the price on the PS3

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/76590-Sony-Sells-Financial-Stake-to-Fund-Games-Unit

Gates shouts at Stringer
Gates shouts at Stringer are just two of the many, going back over two years now.

Doesn't matter if a lot has changed or not. The point is/was, Blu-ray has offered Toshiba an opportunity to standardize. More than two years ago.
In the same thread, BD is slower to the consumer table, mostly because they were still standardizing as early as this year, and in some cases, still trying to negotiate M$ technology into the players to appease both sides. That failed, so they're late. It could cost them the game.
As mentioned before, I have both (actually three players now) and don't have a dog in the fight. Whatever format becomes predominant becomes predominant. Just like the CD, DVD, VHS, DivX, and other hassles early adopters have endured. Eithe way, it won't settle out til after this coming holiday season, and maybe not til third quarter of 08'.
God forbid we have to wade through the fanboy and FUD postings that are predominantly rehashes or copy/pastes from hysterical technogeek forums with no interest in the media content creation industry until then.

Blink3times, if you check the wallStreet articles over ago year, you'll find the Japan's econ has been having difficulty times over the last couple of years. Basicly, all the big name companies, like Sony, Honda, etc... got into every market they could( ie GE, GM did) from cosmetics to insurance in Japan. Brand name sold the products more than the actual product. Slowing, the markets became "limited" in new customers, marketing was then forced to change selling techniques------ in the end, buyers start to look past brand names on products that did not "fit" the image of the brand name----- so, the bigs guys shot themselves in the foot. For the last year, most of the big name Japanese companies have been selling off these secondary holding, hoping to slow the loses of these divisions. Sony has been a lot slower about selling off divisions. But Sony is making a profit even with all the write-offs from these "non-electronic consumer" divisions. If Sony plans a funding drive for BD or PSP3, they will state it.

"Doesn't matter if a lot has changed or not. The point is/was, Blu-ray has offered Toshiba an opportunity to standardize. More than two years ago."
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That's not the debate... NEITHER one of those links states that Sony has invited MS/Tosh to the table before as Spot and FW are claiming...."Sony invited HD DVD/Toshiba a long, long while back at CES." THIS to the best of my knowledge is the FIRST time.
And it seems to me that BD was JUST as stubborn as MS... hence the war. And to top it ALL off standardization (or lack of) is BD's problem.... not HD DVD's!

"Blink3times, if you check the wallStreet articles over ago year, you'll find the Japan's econ has been having difficulty times over the last couple of years."
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yes apit... it's just a great big coincidence..... there seems to be a lot these days.

Thanks DSE for posting the links, History seems to get re- written alot.

"God forbid we have to wade through the fanboy and FUD postings that are predominantly rehashes or copy/pastes from hysterical technogeek forums with no interest in the media content creation industry until then." Boy if I had nickel for everytime that happen,.................well, comcast stock counts as interent stock, ------just keep posting Ms and HD DVD heroes....... we love reading all those claims.....

Amen. BD could potentially lose this game. it might lose because the BD consortium (that the HD DVD fanboys keep referring to as Sony) didn't make the right moves or more likely it's because Toshiba and MS have a great marketing ploy, and serious control over the computer side of the industry.
If BD does by chance lose the game, we all lose, because for all the fact that BD and HD DVD *look* the same to the eye, HD DVD doesn't begin to approach the depth nor opportunity that BD brings to the table. Just like with Betamax, the consumer will lose out if BD doesn't win.
Regardless of your position and interpretation of the facts, BD offered on more than one occasion, to sit with Toshiba and work out a strategy. They have techology that would be of benefit to BD as well. Toshiba nearly lost before they got started, and it was only due to the greed of M$ that they re-gained footing.
I'm a fan of Toshiba. I'm a fan of BD. I'm a fan of great-looking, well produced, feature-rich content. I'm not a fan of M$. I'm not a fan of the fact that this forum has been taken over by BS HD DVD fan screaming, mostly because it's a Sony-owned forum, for Sony-based software, that bears zero relevance to any Sony manufacturing or playback product.
I stll can't for the life of me understand why some folks feel it's acceptable to come into someone's home as an invited guest, and pee all over their carpets.

"yes apit... it's just a great big coincidence..... there seems to be a lot these days." Come on, Japan business market problems are not engineered for Sony benefit, Toshiba has the same problem, just less known in the US press.
Its like claiming MS collapse the Japanese market because they would not play by MS rules------------ feel to spread that ideal.

The fact is all the big players on both sides are having their good and bad moments in the business market. With the credit money for consumers being tighten and the spending patterns shifting ---- a lot more street fighting, I guess, is going to happen in the world markets. MS getting involved in this minor pissing war over formats because of gaming and media center networking has exposed MS more than help it PR image.