Comments

apit34356 wrote on 9/6/2007, 8:15 AM
Spot! "As opposed to pimply-faced punks that predominantly populate the AVS forums?" Please !!!!!! I just about shorted out my very expense toy, as I started laughing--at the same time as drinking my coffee! Please, give us a warning! But keep "up" the humor! I know how tough it is to not comment on somethings.
fwtep wrote on 9/6/2007, 11:16 AM
Whoa there Jay, can you please point out where I was "attacking you?" Here's my initial response to you:

Jay wrote: if my competition is of no real threat, why else would I invite them to join forces with my way of doing things.

Is that attacking? I don't think it is, I think it's answering your question. If anything, your responses to me following that were rude ("Gee whiz, give me a break," "up to now I'd been taking you seriously," etc.) Again, please point out the specific place where I attacked you or issue an apology.

Fred
Coursedesign wrote on 9/6/2007, 12:35 PM
From the referenced article on www.pocket-lint.co.uk:

"The DVD format was good, but profitability only lasted for a couple of years before there was no money to be had in the hardware market," said Marty. "We believe consumers are smart enough to realise the benefits and pay the extra accordingly."

Surely you too are smart enough to realize the benefits of paying extra to ensure the profitability of your friendly hardware manufacturers...

Hoo-hoo-hooo...

But it gets better:

"People aren't interested in downloading videos at the moment. The internet is a good way of delivering music but not video," said Eklund. "Blu-ray has a good 8 to 10 years before the internet catches up."

With movies being legally downloaded in volume every day (as well as illegally), it is hard to imagine which ivory tower these guys reside permanently in.

It shows the danger of not connecting with your customers.

Brings to mind some famous statements from past GM executives who are no longer with that company.
fwtep wrote on 9/6/2007, 1:01 PM
Course, hi-def videos are not being downloaded in volume. Certainly not for pay. How many people are downloading 15gig high def videos? And the majority of people don't have their computers hooked up as part of their television system. Downloading, at the moment and for the next several years at least, is a different market than "home video."
apit34356 wrote on 9/6/2007, 1:28 PM
CourseDesign, I believe the statement must be view in a wider frame of reference. At first, I had a negative response too. After reviewing the general market, I noticed the studios have deals with Sat and cable for new pay-views that span a couple of years. They are looking at DLs seriously, but have deals with theaters that must be honored. The theater deals are big money for all parties. more later
craftech wrote on 9/6/2007, 3:29 PM
EDIT: The "debate" over HD DVD vs Blu-Ray has taken on almost a child-like quality as evidenced by the types of battles that rage on this and other forums.

Yet you continue to perpetuate a bad photoshop job that someone on a dubious forum claims was handed out at CES. With 120,000 attendees, don't you suppose more than one person would have allegedly seen this document and said something about it? Especially when at least 5% of those at CES are journalists? As opposed to pimply-faced punks that predominantly populate the AVS forums?
It's "childish," you're right.
===========
And the photos from Cedia 2007 from the Anand Tech website? Are those fake as well. Let's face it Sony doesn't want to see both formats survive. You yourself said the same thing I did, that you would like to see both formats survive. And YES there IS room for both formats.

John
fwtep wrote on 9/6/2007, 5:16 PM
Why would you want two formats? Wouldn't one format that can do everything you want (like DVD did in its day) be ideal?
Terje wrote on 9/6/2007, 6:49 PM
Let's face it Sony doesn't want to see both formats survive.

Now, who does? Who does it benefit? At the moment, it is a huge hindrance to the adoption of an HD format.

What surprises me in this discussion is the fact that people are actually siding with the inferior format. If you are a computer or video professional, why would you side with the inferior format? Someone was complaining about price, are you joking? If you are a professional, does the difference in the cost of a burner matter? Given the ingenuity of the typical DVD players today, do you have any doubt that most HD players at some stage will play HD content off DVDs? Why would they not?

I use my DVD burner for two main things, creating movie DVDs that I share with people, and for distributing data to friends/colleagues/others. DVDs are tiny for this purpose however. 4G, please. Please give me more, and please don't talk about two or three layers, even today, after years and years, it is touch and go for multi-layer DVD burners, do you think that'll be different in the coming years for HD burners?

Blu-ray is the way to go. It is the better format by quite a margin for multi-purpose burners. I want one now.

Oh, and Sony, if the prices don't come down by Christmas, you have effed up again and lost the market simply because you were too busy studying your own perfect navel in your ivory tower to actually talk to your customers. I'm sure we'll see nice things next week though. We better. OK, I'll give you 'til the big show in Vegas in January.
Coursedesign wrote on 9/6/2007, 7:13 PM
15GB for a high def movie sounds like MPEG-2.

There's also Divx, MPEG-4, and plenty more that can transfer a hi-def movie in a lot less.

There are also several companies today pushing set-top boxes that download movies, for use in the living room.

Marty's statement about wanting to avoid the situation they faced with the DVD players, where competition made prices drop so low that they didn't make "enough profit," was a clear indication that he wanted a trust agreement with the other manufacturers to keep prices high, say an agreement that nobody sells a hi-def player for less than $500 until 2009 when they are allowed to drop the price to $400.

This would of course be illegal under U.S. law, but that is immaterial as anti-trust laws are not enforced today and won't be until January 2009 at the earliest.
blink3times wrote on 9/6/2007, 7:36 PM
"What surprises me in this discussion is the fact that people are actually siding with the inferior format. If you are a computer or video professional, why would you side with the inferior format?"
================================================================
MORE FUD FROM THE BLU RAY CAMP.

Here it is right from the horses mouth (Frank Simonis, the chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association)

"Both format players use the same back-end decoders so the video and the audio is nearly similar. And I can't imagine that an optical mechanism for HD DVD and Blu-ray has a big spread in cost - the expensive part is the blue laser. Technology-wise, there is not a major difference."

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/high-definition/news/blu-ray-boss-hd-dvd-is-not-good-enough?articleid=80768583

If I buy into HD DVD, i will get a solid guaranty (no matter the price of the machine) that it will play HD DVD, 3xdvd, dvd-r, AVCHD... and more. I KNOW that I can create any one of these disks and I don't have to worry about it not playing in a client's machine. That same guaranty can not be made with BD because there is no set standard.

These are facts.... not FUD
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/6/2007, 8:25 PM
The article you refer to is accurate. Why do you refer to it as FUD? For the interactivity that the studios want, re; catalogs to purchase related items, games, making of's/BTS, other movies, unlockable software, and anything related to the movie such as who drove the honey truck, who was the bonding agency, trivia about an actor... and so much more...HD DVD can't contain it.
Higher bitrates are higher quality. Higher bitrates require more space. Various viewing options, such as the interactive dashboard, require more space. BD is gambling that consumers want more bang for their buck.
"Cars" is allegedly 44GB in size. We'll know in a month. HD DVD can't hold that sort of content, and that was Simonis' point. Clearly stated, and certainly not FUD.
Given Disney's announcement too...some of the biggest grossing movies in world history will be soon on BD.
HD DVD is a fine format, and may well prevail. For the moment, all it has going for it is a fanbase of fanboys. The pro's know where the value of BD is, and hopefully the pro's will get what they know the consumer wants, if only they can hold out that long.

And who knows...HD VMD might eclipse them both. It looks great, plays the same content, authors more easily, uses red laser technology which is cheaper because it's mature... Their display of "Apocalypto" was pretty incredible.
farss wrote on 9/6/2007, 8:46 PM
Spot,
you're right on the money about HD VMD:
http://www.prodisc.com.au/

This was the ONLY HiDef disk system at SMPTE, it's here now, local support etc. If I needed to deliver HD content on a shiny disk, which way do you think I'd go?

For anyone who thinks this is smoke and mirrors stuff, just look at the prices!

Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/6/2007, 9:02 PM
Thanks for that link, Bob. we have a prototype they sent out , and it only came with one disc, but it's pretty impressive. They didn't show at NATPE or NAB, but they're quietly marketing their product to journos and writers. Are the prices listed in that flyer AU??
They have a replicator in Canada about ready to roll, but the prices are not quite as high (USD) as the prices for replication in the page you linked.
They don't stand an overall shot, I don't believe, but who knows...distributors might get fed up with the BS and nonsense surrounding the discwars and like some of the Euro disties... move ahead with this as a third or second format. It's already 1080p ready, and could be easy to burn to. We've sent them a series of files for authoring, hoping to see them on this player.
Terje wrote on 9/7/2007, 12:23 AM
"What surprises me in this discussion is the fact that people are actually siding with the inferior format. If you are a computer or video professional, why would you side with the inferior format?"
==============================================
MORE FUD FROM THE BLU RAY CAMP blah, blah, blah...
==============================================

And then he goes on to quote an article where the technical chief of a movie studio tries, somewhat half-heartedly, to justify why his studio went with the HD-DVD format. I totally agree with many points in this article, but you didn't really read what I wrote, now did you?

I use my DVD drive for more than making movies. I use them to distribute data as well. No matter how you look at it, 25G is more, and therefore better, than 15G. No matter how you look at it.

Anything you can do on an HD-DVD disk you can do, in a different way, on a Blu-Ray disk. Blu-Ray supports the inclusion of full-blown Java applications on the disk it self. You can write software in Java that does things that can not possibly be accomplished using XML markup. With a general purpose programming language available on the box, you can do with a Blu-Ray disk anything you can do with a regular computer. That is not the case with HD-DVD.

It is not FUD that the Blu-Ray disks have higher storage capacity than HD-DVD, and for that alone I would go for Blu-Ray. That alone makes the format far more versatile for me as a computer user.

It is also not FUD that a Java-based system is infinitely more flexible than a markup based system.

"If I buy into HD DVD, i will get a solid guaranty (no matter the price of the machine) that it will play HD DVD, 3xdvd, dvd-r, AVCHD... and more."

This is pure and utter nonsense. You don't know anything at all until the burners are released. If you have been around for a while with DVD burners, you will be prepared for the horror of not being able to do half of what you think you will be able to do. Just because it says so in the spec doesn't mean that the burners and players all will be able to accomplish this without problems.

Now, if you can point to a single piece of FUD in my post, please be specific, if not, please stop fuming at the mounth, take two deep breaths and calm the eff down.
blink3times wrote on 9/7/2007, 3:04 AM
"Now, if you can point to a single piece of FUD in my post, please be specific,"
============================================================
Well firstly, you seem to be under the impression that Java systems will work when it hasn't even been tested yet, and second you seem to be under the impression that Java will be a set standard across the BD board. And to top it all off... distributing data on an optical disk is little more than a pipe dream. The writing is MUCH too slow to be of any use as compared to HDD (and please don't tell me that speeds will increase.... DL dvd has been around for a while and speeds have yet to increase to ANY reasonable number) and personally speaking, I wouldn't trust ANY optical disk with 15gigs of MY data, let alone 25gigs

The BDA has a habit of both NOT following a set standard AND putting out incomplete ideas and devices. I don't discount BD's flexibility at all... what I have a problem with is the rather terrible and disorganized mess that the BD camp leads. We have players that play one thing but not another. We have players that can't be updated when an update is on it's way. We have a spec upgrade that will create a whole pile of legacy machines. We have a burner that is out that can't be reliably used because the BDA can't figure which way they want to go with BDMV burning. We now have 2 different disk systems ( one now with AACS). And Sony STILL doesn't get it with the prices. Two new machines coming out... the bd500 and bd2000 priced at $700 and $1300.... Are they crazy???? I'm in Canada where things are always more expensive... by the time those things come here and I pay the 13% sales tax those prices will be about $900 and $1600.... good luck with that.! And here's the punch line... straight from the mouth of a solid BD supporter: "What the heck will those machines do that the PS3 won't?"

That BTW is the biggest joke of all... the PS3 is the best "player" that the BDA has... and it's a frigging game console. That in itself sums up quite nicely the disorganized disaster the BD leads.

While it is true that HD DVD has been slow in getting other aspects of their technology out, everything thus far that has come out, has been organized, standardized, reasonably priced, and it works. Given HD DVD's track record so far, I have little reason to believe that true HD DVD burning will be any different.
blink3times wrote on 9/7/2007, 3:11 AM
"They don't stand an overall shot, I don't believe, but who knows...distributors might get fed up with the BS and nonsense surrounding the discwars and like some of the Euro disties"
=================================================================
I have been saying this for quite sometime now.

There is a terrific chance that BOTH these formats will lose. The longer this war drags on, the more likely another faster, more efficient format to sneak in and steal the show. A very easy thing to do since neither format has grown anything in terms of roots.

In fact... I'll take it a step further and state that BD has already lost.

History has shown over and over again that price wins out... vhs vs. beta.... the laser disk..... the cd.... dvd didn't start taking off until about the year 2000 when the cheap Chinese players started flooding the market. Although this situation is somewhat more complicated by the fact that you have to replace you TV as well...... IF joe public's voice is allowed to be heard.....history WILL repeat itself.

At the present time, only voices that have been heard are from the studios and the high end video/technology enthusiasts. Average Joe public however has yet to weigh in on this war... and this group is MUCH, MUCH bigger. With BD's present pricing scheme and level of complication, there is just simply no way that Average Joe will bite into it. HD DVD has a much better shot at being accepted because it has the better price.... the only question here is whether or not BD will allow HD DVD to win.
craftech wrote on 9/7/2007, 6:25 AM
Let's face it Sony doesn't want to see both formats survive.

Now, who does? Who does it benefit? At the moment, it is a huge hindrance to the adoption of an HD format.
=======================
Let's not forget that Sony is also in the movie business. Toshiba is not. Who does benefit? The consumer. I am fed up with corporate monopolies across the board. They are the reason the world is in the shape it is in and the US has a generally uninformed population that is oblivious to the needs and thoughts of the rest of the world. One more monopoly is one too many. I would rather own a Blu-Ray player and an HD DVD player and buy some movies in both as well as produce content in both just to have some competition. I have stated this before, yet when I criticize Sony for it's big mouth bragging about trashing the competition people automatically assume I am an HD DVD supporter who wants HD DVD to "win" - which is not true.

That is why I call the arguments "childish".

John
farss wrote on 9/7/2007, 7:17 AM
Prices are in AUD.
I've bought quite a lot of product from Prodisc.au.
Might have a word with the owner next week to see how he's going with this.
As a few here are saying, the issue isn't over who wins this "war", it's over which camp gives us a chance at a leg in. So far neither are lighting any fires under me, I'd hazard a guess that even Sony's consummer camera business is being hurt by the lack of consideration for users who simply want to put their HD video onto a shiny disk. Sony's concession to the porn industry was one step in the right direction I guess, maybe Sony will see the light, just lately they seem to be realising that this DRM insanity is costing them more than it's worth.

In the interim there's a pent up demand for anything that'll deliver HD off removable media. Will these alternate solution gain enough traction, I don't really know but what I'm seeing is the that the studio cannot control their ship, HD content is leaking out everywhere, only the ISPs are making a dollar out of this.

Bob.
Jeff9329 wrote on 9/7/2007, 8:01 AM
You guys sure have a lot of time to argue about essentially nothing.

Do all the posters on this thread even have a HD-DVD or BD player? I do, a couple HD-DVD players so far. Even so, I don't give a crap who "wins" as long as someone does (although I do have a lot of HD-DVD movies and HD-DVD authored videos I would have to lose).

One poster said he didn't even know anyone with an HDTV and I think another said he didn't know anyone with a HD player. Sadly, I bet that actually represents 90% (or higher) of all TV viewers. If you guys are not helping decide the format with your wallets, quit blabbing about it, it's not helping.

Who will "win" will be decided by the following:
1. Who has the lowest cost.

There are really no other criteria. If Joe homeowner or a student goes into your local big box store and has two choices, and there is any significant difference in the prices, he will get the cheaper one. I currently don't see how BD even has a chance, especially with HD-DVD including a free movie in the box and a mail in for 5 more free ones.

If BD and HD-DVD were the same cost (not currently), then movie selection and movie cost will be a deciding factor.

As far as Sonys support of a format, who cares? I have given up on them supporting HD-DVD in the forseeable future. So I just use Vegas to edit and a Ulead product to author HD-DVDs. No problem.

In short, quit whining.
blink3times wrote on 9/7/2007, 8:16 AM
"1. Who has the lowest cost."
========================
YUP. IF... BD gets their prices in line before average Joe starts speaking... THEN we may have a REAL war on our hands. But for now it's just tit for tat.

And for the record I do have HD DVD... not really for watching movies, but for my homeburned HD DVD's ...got about 100 by now and if I was to do that with REAL HD DVD/blu ray... the cost would be in the area of $1500-$2000. Instead, the cost has been about $150.
Laurence wrote on 9/7/2007, 8:21 AM
Check out the http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9771267-1.htmlnew LG dual format player[/link]. It does the the latest version of both specs. The only problem is it's too expensive. If both formats last long enough, dual format players will come way down in price and this would be the best thing for consumers at least.
Terje wrote on 9/7/2007, 8:36 AM
Well firstly, you seem to be under the impression that Java systems will work when it hasn't even been tested yet, and second you seem to be under the impression that Java will be a set standard across the BD board. And to top it all off... distributing data on an optical disk is little more than a pipe dream.
================================
This is just sad really. Really sad. Are you so much of a fanboy that you have to make up rubbish just to stroke your own ego?

1 - Java in embedded systems is a well-proven technology, and including it on a player is not a problem at all. It is mandatory for BD players, and it will work. There is a chance there will be minor problems here and there in the start, there always is with technology in new devices, but claiming this is a huge problem is just childish and ignorant. This isn't hard, and it has been done in millions of devices already, Blu-Ray and other types of devices.

2 - Claiming that distributing data on optical disks is a pipe dream is so insane I am not sure what I can say. I have a library of Digital Juice products, for example, that I have purchased, all as data distributed on optical disks. My Windows XP version is distributed to me as data on an optical disk. Your comment shows that you are either astonishingly ignorant, or that you have serious problems explaining what you mean.

=================================================
That BTW is the biggest joke of all... the PS3 is the best "player" that the BDA has... and it's a frigging game console. That in itself sums up quite nicely the disorganized disaster the BD leads.
=================================================
Well, that just shows how incredibly slow you are in the head. In these modern times a system that integrates the entertainment options in a home is the way to go. The PS3 is a great integrated media center, as a games console it has yet to prove it self. As a media center it is by far the best product out there right now.

Never have I seen such a fan-boy straw-grasping in my life. Never have I seen it combined with such a staggering level of ignorance.

Your emotional investment in your favorite system is sad to see.
blink3times wrote on 9/7/2007, 8:57 AM
"1 - Java in embedded systems is a well-proven technology, and including it on a player is not a problem at all. It is mandatory for BD players, and it will work."
=======================================
Oh... but HD DVD burning won't??? You're crystal ball is so much better than mine, you can see into the future and know that HD DVD is not a proven technology as is java on BD... but you can CLEARLY see the Java working out??? Who's making up the stories here???

"The PS3 is a great integrated media center" that has pretty much priced itself right out of the market as far as game consoles go.

"Never have I seen such a fan-boy straw-grasping in my life. Never have I seen it combined with such a staggering level of ignorance.'
Your anger is crystal clear with the name calling and the tone in your writing.... and you're calling ME emotionally involved???. I'm probably one of the few that is not. I HEAVILY support HD DVD for one reason only... it contains a cheap and effective burning aspect. I certainly don't buy too much in the way of movies... that's not to say that I don't like them. My DVD collection is about 1000 strong now. But in that entire bunch, I maybe have 20 or 30 store bought ones... the rest have been recorded from TV and satellite. But if another format came along tomorrow (including BD) that could burn faster, better, and cheaper... then HD DVD would be history in a New York Minute!

MozartMan wrote on 9/7/2007, 9:27 AM
I HEAVILY support HD DVD for one reason only... it contains a cheap and effective burning aspect.
==================================================
blink,

What HD DVD burner do you have?