"DSE, AMen than by a 1000. I like Toshiba, Sony, Philips, ----its sad about the blood letting, but when MS got involved, it became a street fight---- not that the big boys didn't trip each other up. I really don't think there is a working market model predicting BD collapse in any "circles" by cheap players but the credit market goes affect all the big players, MS as well. Agree with you about individuals using "friendly and open" Sony's forum to attack Sony other divisions continuously. I sometimes wonder if individuals are paid by the word to promote other products because of how aggressive the postings are or some form of crying for help."
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Oh yes... here we go... Those big bad HD DVD people picking on lil ole sony. Gimme a break apit... you probably spur this on more than most. If you were TRULY concerned about the Sony forums then you would not be mentioning BD/ HD DVD at all.

well, that makes a lot of sense... let's pay a lot of extra money just because it "can".
Once again, that's completely irrelevant. What does this have to do with price? I merely stated that BR was capable of higher quality because it has more disc space. Cost is besides that point.

And the quality... according to Frank Simonis himself:

Frank and I are both right. Technology-wise there may be no major difference, but disc space-wise there is. And the more disc space, the less compression is necessary. Now just to answer the next comment you'll make... I'm fully aware that currently the encodes are either the same or are about the same. But, well, aren't YOU interested in HD-DVD because the larger disc space (compared to DVD) makes higher bitrate encodes possible? If so, then the additional disc space of BR should make it that much more attractive. (Yeah, yeah, yadda yadda yadda, BR burning is a mess, yadda yadda. That will change. And with Toshiba's burner only hitting the market now, we'll have to see how great that is.)

But let's go back to a rather simple question that JAY asked: "If Sony did not feel that HD-DVD was any threat, why the invite?"
Look, you're going to have to decide whether you want the format war to end or not. Don't chide Sony for being stubborn, then make silly accusations when they're not being stubborn. Let me ask you this: Can you think of NO OTHER REASON besides fear that Sony would want to get together with Toshiba?

I can't help but laugh (seriously, out loud) that little things like Sony saying "we're open to talking to them" is a sign that Sony is quaking in their boots, but you don't consider it an act of fear when Toshiba bribes Paramount in a desperate bid to get content onto HD-DVD.

Cost for creating masters and distributing is my single main concern with Blu Ray. The problem is I don't know what is true and what is FUD. I"ve heard people state that you have to buy an encryption key even if you don't want to use one (for commercially mastered disks), and if the mastering process fails for any reason, you have to purchase another one.
But my searching around the net, I haven't found anything to support that. So..from what I"ve seen, the HD DVD people are trying to position themselves as Indie friendly and making Sony to be kissing up to the Majors. I think Paramounts arguments are valid, but only for the near future, as far as costs. There is no reason a good java programmer couln't make a nice gui front end for others to use. But there is no reason that Sony couldn't adopt the MS easy to use tools either.

Can anyone post actual cost of mastering facts between HD DVD and Blu Ray? Lets say for 10,000 disks?

""Once again, that's completely irrelevant. What does this have to do with price? I merely stated that BR was capable of higher quality because it has more disc space. Cost is besides that point."

More space... It seems that this is about the only advantage that there is left.:) And no.... more space means nothing to me. I don't really care about Hollywood movies, but even if I did... I can't see ANYTHING wrong with a 2-disk set... we already do this with DVD so we know for a fact that it won't kill anybody, and it won't be anymore of an inconvenience than what people are used to.

But BURNING is what I care about. A 15gig disk is cheaper than a 25gig disk, and I can't say that I will ever really need to use more than an hour of HD in the first place. The RARE times that I do need more than 15gigs... well I'm sure it won't kill me to either use 2 disks or but a 30gig disk. Not withstanding... what Sony has done, or not done, or maybe done (who knows now) with BDMV burning.... scares the crap out of me.

But, well, aren't YOU interested in HD-DVD because the larger disc space (compared to DVD) makes higher bitrate encodes possible?'
Yes... but why would you need anything higher than 25M and 15gigs (for our purposes)????

Can you think of NO OTHER REASON besides fear that Sony would want to get together with Toshiba? No.

but you don't consider it an act of fear when Toshiba bribes Paramount in a desperate bid to get content onto HD-DVD. Well first I would call it business.. second.... as far as money goes..... 2 things have yet to be proven.... Microsoft bought Paramount..... and..... BD bought Disney.



ADDED: If you truly believe that MS bought paramount at 150million... then you should also be prepared for the possibility that they won't stop there. 150 million SHOULD be an indication of how determined they are. I doubt they would mindlessly blow 150million if they weren't prepared to do it again.

Can you think of NO OTHER REASON besides fear that Sony would want to get together with Toshiba?

Maybe "fear" is too strong a word.

If I were in competition with another, as in this case, in all honesty, I can't think of any other another reason. If my competition is of no real threat, why else would I invite them to join forces with my way of doing things.

How long has this been going on now?

1-What is happening with the players now does not affect us as authors of content. It may, it may not. You don't know, I don't know. I suspect I know more than most, and even with much insider information on both sides of the discussion, I don't know, you don't know. A bunch of pimply teens FUDding, whining and crying over on AVS and Doom certainly don't know. Particularly those that make up stories simply for the fun of it. I'd be stunned if 10% of them actually own HD hardware of any kind.

2-This is the Sony Creative Software community, not a Blu-ray community. Of your 800+ posts, 70% (rounded off to nearest ten) of them are anti-BD/Pro HD DVD. Honest. From my perspective, that's peeing all over the carpets in their home. You claim to not care about who wins but your posts suggest otherwise. Sony Creative Software is in no way connected to the BD consortium or to Sony Electronics. Separate group of people separate divisions, unrelated offices, no BD programming happens in Madison. None.

3-I've put my money where my mouth is. Owning two BD players, an HD DVD player, and several test burners of various flavors, I'm interested in playing this out and knowing the answers to the full story when it plays out. We've easily spent 10K on the subject. Regardless of cost, we're experimenting with various options virtually every day. We talk to replication houses, we work closely with programmers, it's a worthy discussion from a technical standpoint when facts are involved. But that's not what's happening here.

What is happening here, is that this is Sony's bedroom inside of Sony's house. This is the *only* Sony room owned by Sony in existence. Approximately 2 years past, we nearly lost this forum due to people pissing on Sony, because there is no incentive for Sony to allow these forums to operate. It's a significant liability for Sony to allow them to operate. With communities like the CreativeCOW, DVInfo.net, DMNForums, 2Pop, and several smaller forums, it's very easy for Sony to want to, and act upon, closing this community down. I suspect that if it wasn't for the emminent release of V8, IBC, and a few other distractions, attacks on BD would probably be deleted, and then folks would scream "censorship!"

I'm not a supporter of everything Sony does, by no means could any rational person make that argument. The difference is, I speak where it makes a difference and I don't go into their home and tell em' what pieces of sh** they've created or how stupid they are. Instead I sit on panels, write letters asking questions, and study the "whys" of what they do. Our clients demand we know what's happening. The fastest way to have a manufacturer or developer slam the door in our face is to tell em' how screwed up they are.
I guess we each have our different methods, but given a professional, moderated community such as those I've mentioned earlier, none of these threads (which are at least 80%FUD, probably paid for by a marketing group at some bottom-feeding level that makes its way into the Doom/AVS/hometheater fora) would be allowed to exist.

Vegas 8 is releasing, and all you can talk about is how crappy BD is? Doesn't that seem just a bit pathetic?
You're right, I could just close my eyes, but that's not my way. I've spent most of my life with bloody toes for kicking against the pricks. I suppose we have a different sense of what appropriate behavior in someone else' home might be.

As I have said Spot.. you are welcome to your opinion... but point of fact, it is hard to talk about cameras, software, movies, hi def burning, stereos, tv's, dvdplayers... etc...etc WITHOUT involving Sony merely because they have their hands in on everything.

And what is happening now with players and authoring SHOULD be known by now.. Sony has had more than a year to get it together.... and they haven't....and that TRULY scares me. People don't voice their opinion as loud as I do just for the fun of it.

And please stop being so dramatic.... this is NOT Sony's bedroom. I do not want censorship either. I think that would be a bad thing for all. And yes... I agree, there is quite a bit of FUD on both sides. But as long as there are others involved here along with me, upping the ante on the FUD... then so shall I.

And yes.... from a burning aspect ... BD is "crappy" . Sorry guy... I really truly wish I could say something other than that.... but I can't

I suppose we have a different sense of what appropriate behavior in someone else' home might be.

I'd agree with you 100% if certain divisions of Sony shared the same ethic.
Also in the end this is a forum for Vegas, it just happens to be owned by Sony. And all of us here are in the business of creating content and precious little of it for Sony. Those other divisions of Sony have shown little to no regard for independant content producers. Is supporting SCS and their market here appropriate if that means giving those other divisions a bit of stick when needed. I don't really know but I can sure understand why many might feel it appropriate.

Bob.

I'm not one of the standard people throwing their opinion in the ring with this issue, so it may fall on deaf ears, but here goes:

I love Sony stuff. I love using Vegas. I just bought the V1U. I use a Hi-MD minidisc for additional audio tracks. I have Sony cameras, etc. etc. BUT, I do have concerns if Sony et al were to corner the market with BR. They always seem to want to be so proprietary. With my Hi-MD, I can still only download tracks once digitally onto my hard drive (unless someone has a hint I don't know about). What they did recently with the CD debacle makes me wary. I could see -- if they were controlling the new HD burning market -- them being very restrictive with what I can use BR for and remaining very expensive. I wish there were one format now, but at least with HD-DVD out there, it's forcing BR to drop prices, and likely to open up BR discs to many more options than the BR consortium (involving Sony in particular) seem to want at this time. I may be wrong here as I know minimal about this war, and please tell me how, because if BR was the primary format, disc AND drive prices dropped, and I could burn a full HD disc with menu, etc., that'd be awesome. I'm just always wary of a monopoly.

Oh please, Blink3times, more crying "Those big bad HD DVD people picking on lil ole sony. Gimme a break". You sound like a teenager trying to justify bad conduct. Can you post even in this forum for ten days without slamming Sony or preaching HD DVD?

"Oh please, Blink3times, more crying "Those big bad HD DVD people picking on lil ole sony. Gimme a break". You sound like a teenager trying to justify bad conduct. Can you post even in this forum for ten days without slamming Sony or preaching HD DVD?"
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Oh.... this is really all my fault??? I wonder if Spot might be so good as to look up how many posts YOU have contributed to these debates. Do yourself a favor... stand up and take responsibility for your actions..... it's the grown up thing to do.

And how about FW with his "(SORRY) NO HD DVD SPIKE HERE" thread.... that wasn't built specifically for argument??

I stand up for my beliefs... do you???

I wonder if Spot might be so good as to look up how many posts YOU have contributed to these debates.

Actually, I did, FWIW. :-) you lead the pack by a fair number.
It's easy to view, unless of course, you start trying to sort Grazie or Farss posts, then you're in for some serious work. :-) :-)

"Actually, I did, FWIW. :-) you lead the pack by a fair number."
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Yes... quite naturally Spot... I have had to defend myself (HD DVD)2 or 3 times as hard given the number of people I have had to debate with. It's quite interesting how you don't see that.

As I said... i stand up for my beliefs

And for the record... your link shows that I have 823 posts... apit shows 1335

More space... It seems that this is about the only advantage that there is left.:)
You're the one who brought the issue of quality up, not me. And I showed you how BR is capable of better quality. And your only response when proven WRONG is to try to joke. That IS funny.

but why would you need anything higher than 25M and 15gigs (for our purposes)????
Why would anyone ever need more than 64k?
Why would anyone ever need more space than a CD?
Why would anyone ever need more than a 1 gig drive?
Why would anyone ever need more than, ah, screw it.

Can you think of NO OTHER REASON besides fear that Sony would want to get together with Toshiba? No.
Well then you're not very business savvy. No need to discuss it then.

but you don't consider it an act of fear when Toshiba bribes Paramount in a desperate bid to get content onto HD-DVD. Well first I would call it business.. second.... as far as money goes..... 2 things have yet to be proven.... Microsoft bought Paramount..... and..... BD bought Disney.
Oh, so when Sony does something, it's fear. When Toshiba does something it's business. Good to see you're not biased or anything.

As for MS buying off Paramount, you haven't been paying attention. They didn't. At least not directly. The money/incentives that Paramount got came from the HD-Alliance (which is pretty much Toshiba). But as far as the BR group paying anyone off, I haven't seen any reports at all about that, other than HD fanboys *assuming* it happened. So since it was immediately revealed that Paramount's decision was based on a bribe, I'm going to have to assume that since nothing's come to light in over a year now about any studios being bought by BR that it just didn't happen.

Lastly, the money pot that HD can draw from to buy Paramount won't necessarily last forever. Remember, these are publicly traded companies and they have to answer to their stockholders. If things don't improve for HD-DVD the stockholders will not want more of their money funneled into it.

"I stand up for my beliefs... do you???" ;-)

Blink3times; Does that mean you don't type what you believe or you won't be typing your beliefs because you are standing up (at the keyboard)----- either one works for me. ;-)

Jay wrote: if my competition is of no real threat, why else would I invite them to join forces with my way of doing things.

How about asking them to surrender?

How about asking them to join in order to make something bigger and better?

How about asking them to join merely as a publicity ruse?

How about asking them to join so it puts them on the defensive?

And yes.... from a burning aspect ... BD is "crappy" . Sorry guy... I really truly wish I could say something other than that.... but I can't

How are things from the HD-DVD side? Do you know anyone with an HD-DVD burner? I don't mean burning HD content on a regular DVD-- that's a separate issue (and it's great that it's possible, by the way). Since you're complaining about issues with burning BR on BR burners, you can't say that it's any better or worse than HD, because no one has HD burners yet.

Spot, is it possible to burn AVCHD to a standard DVD and play it back on a Blu Ray player at full rez?
I thought only HD DVD offered that.

I'm just glad all this passion expressed on this video forum is geared at something that eventually will effect most if not all of us in the video world about the video world........ not global warming, bush ,clinton, penguins or polar bears.
have at it guys :)

""Actually, I did, FWIW. :-) you lead the pack by a fair number."
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Yes... quite naturally Spot... I have had to defend myself (HD DVD)2 or 3 times as hard given the number of people I have had to debate with. It's quite interesting how you don't see that.

As I said... i stand up for my beliefs

And for the record... your link shows that I have 823 posts... apit shows 1335"

Blink3times, using the advance search with defined text helps limit the type of posts counted.

"defend myself (HD DVD)2 or 3 times as hard given the number of people I have had to debate with" More crying, are you feeling rejection, can't force everyone to follow your "beliefs"?

Your counting this I hope Spot, and taking into consideration why I have so many posts.

"because no one has HD burners yet."
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YUP... that's right.... and I can STILL burn a reliable HD DVD that will playback in ANY machine.

The HD DVD burner are in fact out (overseas now) and apparently... they're coming in CHEAPER than the BD burners.