By the way, the PS3 is incredibly cool as a media player. As a game player, I'd probably rather have a wii, but as a media player, it just rocks. Nothing else even comes close!
Blink,
With all the negative things you have to say about BR, it must really kill you that it's still killing HD-DVD. And yes, I consider owning 70% or so of the market to be "killing." Heaven knows that if HD-DVD had 70% of the market you'd say (and be right) that it was killing BR.
And that's where I stand. I don't know and don't care about what each format can do, other than play movies, of course. My comments are all about what's happening in the market place, not what *should* happen or what I'd *like* to happen. If HD wins, great, because the studios would all support it then, including Sony (they made VHS decks and released movies on VHS, remember). If BR wins, great, because Paramount's deal with HD is only for 18 months anyway.
So far, despite the "bombshell" announcement from Paramount, BR is still doing exactly as well as it was before. The next few months will be interesting but barring any other unexpected bombshells (and remember, the bombshells can come from either side), I don't see HD-DVD gaining any significant ground.
"With all the negative things you have to say about BR, it must really kill you that it's still killing HD-DVD. And yes, I consider owning 70% or so of the market to be "killing." Heaven knows that if HD-DVD had 70% of the market you'd say (and be right) that it was killing BR"
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Oh yes FW... what can I say... BD has just a COMMANDING lead. Why the spread is so incredible that HD DVD will never be able to catch up!! HD DVD is just barely hanging on by its fingernails. Oh heavens... the day is lost... life is just a fragment of what it used to be. Not even the MILLIONS of people out there can change the events... all is gone........ Yeah right.... the numbers are so tiny... they could change in a minute... and they will... have no fear.
Paramount has yet to produce anything serious in the way of movies... but they will.
In the mean time, a popular thread in the blu ray section of AVS is "Blades of Glory found on BD in Canada".... they're getting pretty desperate.
"What HD DVD burner do you have?"
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That's the beauty of it.... you don't need one. You can make a FULLY authored hd dvd complete with motion menus, chapters, 5.1 sound... etc for the price of a DL dvd
Oh and BTW... just in case you don't know...APPLE has joined in on that front. FCP is now supporting HD DVD burning.
Terje: "1 - Java in embedded systems is a well-proven technology, and including it on a player is not a problem at all. It is mandatory for BD players, and it will work.
blink3times: Oh... but HD DVD burning won't??? You're crystal ball is so much better than mine, you can see into the future and know that HD DVD is not a proven technology as is java on BD
Sigh. It is hard to communicate with people who go nuts every time you disagree with them, but I'll try.
I have never said that HD DVD burning is not a proven technology and that Java is not. In fact, I have never sayd that HD DVD burning is not a proven technology at all. What I did say was that a general purpose programming language, like Java, is infinitely more flexible as a menu, configuration and anything else you can think of, system than is markup. Theoretically, practically and in all other ways, the Java capabilities of Blu-Ray makes it more flexible than HD DVD.
Note, I am not saying HD DVD will not work, why would I say that, of course it will work. It will work very well. I am just saying that it will not offer the disk production companies as much flexibility as will a general purpose programming language.
blink: "
Sigh. Talking to children is so hard at times. Yes, you are absolutely correct, the PS3 is very expensive as games consoles goes. It is however, cheaper than a comparable XBoX 360 with an HD DVD player add-on. Depending of course a little bit on where you buy the different missing pieces to make the equivalent.
The PS3 was also not intended as a games console only, and that's OK. It sells reasonably well, not stellar, but reasonably well. It sells far better than all HD DVD players combined, for example.
blink: I HEAVILY support HD DVD for one reason only... it contains a cheap and effective burning aspect.
The PS3 plays HD movies off regular DVDs. The PS3 is by far the most widely sold Blu-Ray player. Do you really think that other Blu-Ray manufacturers will not duplicate this feature? How would they otherwise compete against the PS3?
It also looks like the Blu-Ray group will add similar features formally to the Blu-Ray standard soon. How would I deal with that right now if I was a Blu-Ray manufacturer? Easily, I would make sure that a DVD, burned with the same folder structure as a Blu-Ray disk, plays like a Blu-Ray disk. It would be idiocy not to do this. They will.
Given the higher data capacity of BD, there is still no doubt which is the better format for a computer user.
Terje, if Blu Ray actually supports playing back HD conent from a dual layer standard DVD, then it really is all over. Thats what people want for home movies, even HD ones. that gives them the option to wait for Blu Ray burners to come way down in price.
Independent film makers can at least make short form movies without having to break the bank.
The latest firmware upgrade to the ps3 will let you play back movies from a memory stick.
Support for content on DL DVD, is, in my mind, the only benefit HD DVD has over Blu Ray at the moment.
As Terje and a lot other people have pointed out, the PSP3 is a powerful BD media system, simply put there is no HD DVD equal, even with all the add-ons the x360 add-ons its still does not output 1080P HDMI from the console.
But now add to the PSP3 the HES-V1000 media library for distr playing in the home,serious HD for the middle to high-end video individuals, what does the HD DVD offer..........
What is the HES-V1000
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Sony Introduces 200-Disc Blu-ray Media Center
Posted September 5, 2007 by Josh
Blu-ray Disc Sony Electronics has introduced the HES-V1000, Blu-ray media center with a 500GB hard drive and 200-disc changer. Digital content stored on the machine, such as music and photos, will be accessable through a XMB cross-bar menu (similar to the one found on the PS3). The HES-V1000 is expected to be available sometime in October for approximately $3,500.
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And the $200 china player spin, lets look closer-------------------------
Toshiba claims the China manufacturers entry into the mainstream in DVD change the market, but if you listened carefully( if you were there) or read the summaries, it was noted that they only entered the DVD market when the volume was there. So, using that logic; BD disks are out selling HD DVDs, BD would be the market.
Secondary issue with China manufacturing is world business alliances, do you think Toshiba can pull this off----------- only Intel and MS can offer enough major $$$ and promises to China directly, but MS is pissed off about China's pirating issue--a tough call for MS( Who's the biggest pain; PSP3,Sony, or China pirating).
Intel is the only one with enough political power in China to get the government to twist the arms of manufacturers to go HD DVD against the market trend. This could be dangerous for Intel if major Intel stockers do not like spending money on non-ic manufacturing issues. But even if China is moved to push HD DVD, there is enough content to support flooding the market with players with tight credit, Big box retailers can not underwriter this push, so the credit line must come from someone,---- and neither Intel nor MS is considered a banking company----- so, all these company boards must approved this plan, so its not a simple process, not impossible, just very complex.
Plus one point that you may have fail to consider; is that Toshiba is still receiving "fees" for DVDs being produce. What pushes Toshiba is the declining DVD market, but if the market HD fails, they still are making money - pure profit- without any cost. So, for Toshiba, a total collapse of the HD market is better, than a weak or marginal HD market with no DVD market volume.
"Java, is infinitely more flexible as a menu, configuration and anything else you can think of, system than is markup"
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Yes... and already stated by the studios... Paramount particularly... is that now with Java, they will have to hire programmers. You can be sure that cost will be passed on to the consumer. But let's get realistic here, even IF Java proves to be trouble free, how many average joe's know enough about it to use it. You can already write a data dvd with Java... but the funny thing is, I can't recall anyone I know actually doing so. If Java is your major argument, then I would say it's a pretty weak one.
It sells reasonably well, not stellar, but reasonably well. It sells far better than all HD DVD players combined, for example.
"Not steller" is a bit of an understatement. The PS3 is a disappointment to both Sony and its shareholders. Don't get me wrong... I don't for one minute say it's a BAD device... in fact it's quite the opposite, which was my point in the first place... it is literally the best "player" that the BD camp has. No other stand alone player can touch it... and that's the silly part.
"It also looks like the Blu-Ray group will add similar features formally to the Blu-Ray standard soon."
That remains to be seen... and if it is true... then it will AT LEAST be a step in the right direction. I do however feel sorry for all those people that have bought machines that can't be upgraded. My guess is that there will be a few angry ones too.... not very good planning.
It will however be real interesting to see what happens with BDMV burning... because that's what matters, and to this point BD (or Sony) has been real... shall we say...GRAY.... about the direction they are going. And IMO... the GRAY has been intentional. I'm of the opinion that BD is setting us up so that if we want to burn any kind reasonable semi pro HD disk... we're going to have to pay through the nose.
'Given the higher data capacity of BD, there is still no doubt which is the better format for a computer user.
Yes... in my eyes... this is the only REAL advantage that BD has, and even with that IMO, it's not a big enough advantage to make the extra cost worth it
"Sigh. It is hard to communicate with people who go nuts every time you disagree with them,
You go back and read our posts and then try and tell me that I'M the one that went nuts... I certainly don't recall flying off the handle slamming you with a bunch of unflattering names.... I think it was the other way around.
"Support for content on DL DVD, is, in my mind, the only benefit HD DVD has over Blu Ray at the moment."
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That... and lower price. But for me the 3xdvd is by FAR most important. It gives us the opportunity to Author CHEAPLY.
The ability to author HD content cheaply and easily should be the primary topic on this forum. Im starting to think there are very few Vegas editors actually editing HDV content. I have been trying to deliver HD content for years.
The price to author right now is dramatically lower on HD-DVD. A $60 authoring program and a $1.75 DL DVD vs a $60 authoring program, a $1000 BD burner and a $25 BDisc.
Currently the cost to watch content is also dramatically different, a $300 dollar HD-DVD player or a $800 BD player?
Why would anyone pay the current price premium?
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"Support for content on DL DVD, is, in my mind, the only benefit HD DVD has over Blu Ray at the moment."
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That... and lower price. But for me the 3xdvd is by FAR most important. It gives us the opportunity to Author CHEAPLY
Im starting to think there are very few Vegas editors actually editing HDV content. I have been trying to deliver HD content for years."
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I think there is something to that. Most if not all of the HD DVD supporters here are people that are burning Hd right now... today, and therefore have first hand knowledge of how fast, cheap, and easy it is with HD DVD.
The ability to burn a 3xdvd and have it playback on ANY hd dvd player, in my book.. is TRULY a feature too important to be overlooked if you are into HD editing.... It's a MAJOR advantage
"Jeff, welcome back to 2006!"
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2006.... 2007... makes little difference. Today, a burner for $350, the disks for about 15 or 20, plus DVDitPRO for another $500. For that, you get a disk that plays back in SOME machines.
And me... I live in Canada... so I can add at least another $350 on the top of that to cover price differences and taxes
Blink wrote: Paramount has yet to produce anything serious in the way of movies... but they will.
Well you'd think they would have announced it when everyone was listening a few weeks ago. Anyway, whatever they announce will have to happen soon. Pre-book end dates for the holiday season are coming up in a few weeks.
In the mean time, a popular thread in the blu ray section of AVS is "Blades of Glory found on BD in Canada".... they're getting pretty desperate.
It's funny how the tiniest little things show desperation or fright to you when they're in reference to BD. The HD-DVD crowd looks for European releases of films which are BR in the US but you don't single them out as being desperate.
Also, I saw Blades of Glory in the theater. Obviously these people didn't, or they wouldn't be going to such lengths. Well, as if ordering from a place in Canada can really count as "great lengths."
"Anyway, whatever they announce will have to happen soon. Pre-book end dates for the holiday season are coming up in a few weeks."
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They just did at CEDIA... 125 new titles coming for the Holiday Season.
"The HD-DVD crowd looks for European releases of films which are BR in the US"
Yes... but searching outside the Country happens to be a very new thing for the BD crowd... well... welcome to the war :)
As far as I'm concerned, there will always be two or more choices. Neither will win. It will be VHS & Beta all over again. With one camp winning in sales and the other winning with quality. Marketers learned long ago, having two or more of everything equals more sales. Hollywood loves more formats. It's an illusion to think that they're really striving for one. Ultimately more sales with more formats. SImple math.
Most of you reading this, will own both in the future and there will probably be an elite, extremely expensive, 3rd format for those who can afford it too.
And of course, being an utter HD-DVD fan boy, you take the Paramount message, paid for by Toshiba, as gospel. The Paramount statement is, quite frankly, pure at utter bull***t. Of course paramount will not hire programmers, why on earth would they? That is what software companies are for. Paramount will not develop the software, they will license it. Hardly anybody develops their own software these days.
blink
Java is trouble free, and it has been for almost 10 years. The average Joe doesn't, and shouldn't have to, know how to use it. Why do you think they would? Excel is written in C++, do you need C++ knowledge to use Excel? How about word?
Software developers develop software. Companies license the software. The average Joe uses the software.
blink
You really have no idea what Java is, what it can do, how it will be used, or anything else about Java and BD, do you? The statement over is one of those statements that so elegantly shows that the person who utters it has no clue what he is talking about. Can you try to elaborate on what it is you are trying to say above? Why is Java on Blu-Ray relevant for a data dvd?
Blink about the PS3
How is that silly?
blink
Which of the current Blu-Ray players are not upgradeable? To my knowledge all of the current Blu-Ray players are upgradeable. Who is it thatyou are feeling sorry for?
"Which of the current Blu-Ray players are not upgradeable? To my knowledge all of the current Blu-Ray players are upgradeable. Who is it thatyou are feeling sorry for?"
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It seems you need to educate yourself. On october 31 blu ray changes it's spec to include pip, menus...etc. Some of the machines can be upgraded and some can not. Some of the machines are in fact missing some of the necessary hardware to take advantage of the full firmware upgrade. People are stating that these machines will still be able to play movies... they just won't get the extra features (not sure how true that is)... As for which machines... you do the research.
How is that silly?
If you can't see the silliness in a Game console as a better player than a player itself... well not much more I can do here.
You really have no idea what Java is
More assumptions... you seem to be good at that.
Java is basically a language used to create a set of instructions for an application... or even a computer. Many internet sites... especially those with games require Java... I've had to set up enough of that crap for my kids. Regardless, I have no need or interest in proving my level of intelligence to you... When it comes right down to it... I really could not care less what you think of me. Having said that, I have no plans to get into a royal debate over Java. It seems pretty important to you so who am I to say otherwise. From my point of view however... it's completely useless. I won't be using it, requiring it, or needing it. I have no plans what so ever to "distribute data". If XML is good enough for Paramount, Universal, and microsoft... then the chances are it's good enough for me. I create and distribute video... and that's where my interest starts and stops. I don't even really buy movies.
Of course paramount will not hire programmers, why on earth would they?
And Paramount told you this casually as you sat there drinking tea with them right? You seem to know an awful lot.... too bad NONE of it is fact.
The Paramount statement is, quite frankly, pure at utter bull***t.
Tell me... were they ALWAYS bullsh*tters or did they just recently become so a short time ago.... when they crossed the floor? It amazes me how a BD'er can praise a studio one day... and then call them bullsh*tters the next.
'And of course, being an utter HD-DVD fan boy
If you think that's an insult... then you would be wrong... I have no problem at all in standing up for what I believe... or even admitting such a thing.
"They just did at CEDIA... 125 new titles coming for the Holiday Season.
I must have missed the announcement of 125 titles from Paramount. Link?"
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Sorry FW... I may have given you the impression that it was a sole announcement from Paramount which is not the case. It was a combined announcement from Paramount, Dreamworks, Universal, and Warner.
As I have posted in another thread, sales of SD DVDs consistently swamp all combined sales of Hi-Def discs by a huge margin so there is absolutely nothing for either format to brag about. Maybe they will both kill each other off through greed. Wouldn't make me unhappy. I bought my Toshiba HD-A1 to upscale SD DVDs anyway.
Now let's see how that could happen:
Nobody owns the SD DVD format or has a major share of it so movie companies are free to produce them. So what would be a viable Hi-Def alternative while Sony and Toshiba are killing each other off? Hmmmmmm.
I have it! Digital video tapes and cheap DV players. Imagine the cost savings of movies on tiny little tapes that take up less room than a DVD. How many of those could fit in a store like Blockbuster? How cheap would they be to ship? No one would have a monopoly on the format. Maybe other advantages that one could think of.
"Which of the current Blu-Ray players are not upgradeable? To my knowledge all of the current Blu-Ray players are upgradeable. Who is it thatyou are feeling sorry for? "
The only older Blu-ray player that is upgradeable is the PS3. By that, I mean upgradeable to the new Blu-ray Java. On the older players, the movie will still work, but the new Java features won't.
I find it particularly silly that the main advantage of Bluray seems to be the extra room for the extended non-movie features, and yet many of these extra features will not work anyway if you have an older (current) Blu-ray player.
Blink wrote: Sorry FW... I may have given you the impression that it was a sole announcement from Paramount
Well that's because you were responding to a comment I made about Paramount not announcing any additional titles yet. Here's what I wrote (so you don't have to scroll up :-) ...
"Well you'd think they [Paramount] would have announced it when everyone was listening a few weeks ago. Anyway, whatever they announce will have to happen soon. Pre-book end dates for the holiday season are coming up in a few weeks."
And I still stand by that. Pre-book dates are coming close to an end for the Holiday season; there's just not a lot of time left to get titles into the release pipeline. Stores have to allocate their purchases, figure out marketing, etc. and you can't just spring product on them. Plus, the studios need to asses the number of discs to create. That's the way the industry works. Pre-book dates generally end about a month or two before release date.
By the way, that article you linked to was another one to make the stupid mistake of not considering the PS3 to be a player. I guess it's not their fault though, because they were parroting back Toshiba's claim that they've sold more "dedicated players." But that's really wrong of them to say, because the PS3 is fully intended to be a complete home entertainment system, so why shouldn't it be counted? It's a BR player with the ability to play games, it's not like a game machine that the kids have hacked to be able to play movies.