"And I still stand by that. Pre-book dates are coming close to an end for the Holiday season; there's just not a lot of time left to get titles into the release pipeline.'
============================================================
We'll see FW... that's all one can do. i doubt they will get ALL 125+ movies out before the holidays, but my guess is that they will release the more important money makers first.

No comment on the PS3. I don't truly know why it is not being looked at as a "player"... if it should... if it shouldn't. I would guess that to be left up to what ever person is counting for what ever reason.

"The only older Blu-ray player that is upgradeable is the PS3. "
===============================================
WOW!
Worse than I thought... I figured at least a few of them to be upgradeable.

Older DVD players weren't upgradable either. Not that that makes it OK, but it's not like early adopters should be surprised.

blink

These are software issues, if someone sold a Blu-Ray player that can not be upgraded in this day and age, it was a bad player, and this has nothing to do with Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. Obviously you can also create an HD DVD player that is not upgradeable. That would also be dumb.

blink

In other words, you just state absurdities and when challenged, you can't provide an explanation. Well, that isn't much of a surprise.

Terje

blink

You just did. Knowledge of any specific topic and intelligence are not in any way correlated. Sadly, a lot of people think they are, and they tend to brand people with a lot of knowledge as "intelligent". There is no correlation. If you had been intelligent, you would have known that.

Your statements about what Java is also leads me to believe that you do not have a lot of knowledge about Java. As you point out, Java is a programming language, but you seem to believe it is somehow Internet related. It is not. Java is a general purpose programming language like C/C++, Fortran etc. This means that you write any application to do anything and run it from a Blu-Ray disk. This is infinitely more flexible than the HD DVD scheme. That was my only point. The Java route is so much more flexible that it counts in the "Advantage" end of Blu-Ray.

blink

The problem is that this point of view comes from a point of ignorance. More flexibility is always better than less flexibility, both for the studios, you, me and the consumer. Why you would throw away flexibility for rigidity is beyond me.

blink

Again you show your massive ignorance. What are you blabbering about "distributing data" for when you are talking about Java? Do you think Java on BD has anything to do with "distributing data"? Apparently. So, before you continue making a fool out of your self, please read up on what Java is, and how Java will enable far more flexibility in movie productions than is possible with an XML-based scheme.

If you are interested in creating and distributing video, then you should also be interested in distributing the best products to your consumer. The more flexibility you have, the better you can tailor the product to your customer. Java gives you far more flexibility than you could possibly get with XML. Sadly, you really don't get it since you have long since decided what format is best, and you have no capacity for learning about things you don't want to hear about.

Terje:

blink

You really are a sad and pathetic individual. You are accusing me of lying, but you can't really provide a single statement from me where I am not telling the truth. That is the typical last straws fanatical nut cases when someone is challenging their religious beliefs. Drop your HD DVD religion dude, it isn't that important.

Now, why do I say that Paramount are not going to hire programmers? Well, why would Paramount try to turn it self into Microsoft or Adobe? Why would they go become a software development company? Why would they not do as they do today, which is to buy and license the software they need? Do you have any idea how long it would take Paramount to turn it self from a media company into a software development company? The very idea is ludicrous.

blink

Your inability to read is even more astonishing than your ability to hang on to religious beliefs about technology and other things you clearly know nothing about. I have never stated that Paramount are bullsh*tters, I have only pointed out that one single PR stunt from them, a PR stunt to justify the fact that they took money to support one particular format in a format war, was bullsh*it. If you don't understand the difference, then you actually are as dumb as you think I think you are.

I can easily praise Paramount (I don't recall I ever did, but that's another matter) for their work on some things, and still think that one of their press releases is bullsh*t. Why is it that simple people like you think that the world is utterly black and white, and because I state that one press release from Paramount is bull, then everything that comes out of Paramount must be bull? How old are you, fourteen?

blink

I have no doubt, now stop believing all the time and start thinking. Believing is for superstitious people. Rational people think. It is much more sensible.

Laurence

I have no doubt that what you are saying is correct, but this baffles me. Any player where you can upgrade the firmware should be upgrade to be Java enabled. This is just software after all, so why they are not upgradeable eludes me. Do you know the technical reason these players are not upgradeable to BDJ?

blink

Well, it is a player, so looking at it differently would be superstition in spite of fact, which is in the realm of the rather insane. An opinion on what something is or is not that is counter to what that thing in reality is, is in fact the very definition of insanity.

"These are software issues, if someone sold a Blu-Ray player that can not be upgraded in this day and age, it was a bad player, and this has nothing to do with Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. Obviously you can also create an HD DVD player that is not upgradeable. That would also be dumb."
==================================================
They are NOT software issues.. they are "HARDWARE issues. And they are not hardware issues with HD DVD... they are hardware issues with BD. You have now been told by TWO people and your refusal to accept it does not in any way show MY ignorance.

Further more it is clear that you are NOT as knowledgeable on the subject of BD as you think and are blowing little more than smoke. I know about the spec upgrade and the problems behind it and I am not even a BD supporter.

Lastly... I am a little tired at your insults... and I have TRIED to hint as much... obviously you don't listen or hear at all. Others on this board are quite capable of healthy debate with out the insults...you have a problem with this and you need to think about it a little better You include statements such as "You really are a sad and pathetic individual." and then you claim I'M the one that is looking like a fool!?

I have no further wish to involve myself with you or your personal attacks that have little to do with the situation at hand... so you go ahead and say what ever you wish. In future however, you should learn to challenge one's IDEAS and not attack their personality... because in the end.... it only makes YOU look like the fool.

blink

What are you on about now? Whether a player is upgradeable or not is a design issue, in other words, if the player was designed in such a way that it could be upgraded, than it can be upgraded, if it was designed in such a way that it can not be upgraded, then... this is irrespective of the technology used to read the disk in the player (in other words BD or HD DVD).

If a player can be upgraded, it can be upgraded to run Java applications, obviously. If it can't it wasn't upgradeable in the first place. The ability to run Java or not is 100% a software issue, it is not, and can not possibly, theoretically or practically, be a hardware issue. There is no hardware required to run Java.

Now, if you think that this was a hardware issue, it would be interesting to see you explain what kind of hardware you think is required to run Java that is not available in these BD players.

blink

Clearly a lot more than you on such things in general. What hardware is required to run Java? Please enlighten me.

Now - a little bit about my background before you start: I used to design, develop and later sell licensed software of the kind that the call "embedded". Are you familiar with the concept of real-time embedded software? It is the kind that you install in, for example, DVD players to play DVDs, cars to run their diagnostics software, telecom switches to route traffic etc.

In other words, I used to design the kind of software that goes into BD players, but obviously not for the BD players since I moved on from that type of job about 6 years ago, and there were no BD players at the time. I did two car systems where the system had the ability to read a DVD. If you burned a DVD with a BD-J menu system on it, I would be able to upgrade both of those car systems to run the BD-J menu system, but I would not be able to upgrade them to read a BD-J disk.

That is the difference between a hardware and a software update. I can upgrade the software do do anything you want with what comes off the disk, but I can not upgrade it to read disks with a physically different structure.

So, if someone tells me I need a hardware change to process data that is on a disk I can already read, I allow my self to seriously doubt what that person is saying simply because it makes absolutely no sense at all. From a pure technical standpoint. Oh, and a movie on a BD or HD DVD disk is just data. If my player can read that movie, the player can read anything else on the disk and process it.

So, again, since you claim to know so much, enlighten me to exactly what it is of hardware that is needed to run Java. That is, assuming the player is upgradeable in the first place.

blink

I have generally commented on your ideas and how they are presented. If you don't like my commenting on that, you might want to think about how you are presenting things. Let me use an example: A PS3 is, by definition, a BD player. It cannot be viewed as anything else by any person that is remotely knowledgeable. Debating whether it is or is not a player is something that would clearly be absurd, and holding the view that it isn't a player, in the realm of the insane.

Note, I am not saying you are insane, not even hinting at it. I am just pointing out that stating that something that clearly is true might be false is absurd bordering on insane.

If I offended you with my previous statements, I am sorry, truly. The "sad and pathetic" statement was absolutely crossing the line.

Terje, the HD DVD crowd has nothing that completes with PS3 and this drives them cravz, The X360 is a engineering disaster requiring over $1billion in current repairs. Sony uses the SoC family, and Toshiba has moved up to the SoC family in its latest models, early models of HD DVD players are seriously underpowered for executing any enrich HDi instruction. Its fun reverse-engineering, then its shows the truth.

blink, your are wrong as usual. What about Toshiba A1?

The new Toshiba 3 layer HD DVD 51 g media requires an new player, the old players mech's can not read the new tracks needed for the 51g, so--- who's has the real problems, its Toshiba not Sony. What about that Toshiba produced first players with no 1080p, no HD writers, where are all the media centers and etc. Oh-right this about Sony having all the problems, not Toshiba.

The HD DVD crowd has been spinning their slow market grown by continuous blaming Sony for their failures. AVS forums MS insiders almost spin every question into some form of a slam against Sony.

blink, your comments about Java demonstrates that you do not have an understanding about Java or system programming or hardware design. This reflects way some of AVS forum posting by "MS Insiders" slide by facts.

But I believe that this does not invalidate your believe in the HD DVD product, but make the arguments by you more personal choices that technical. If the your reasoning for this choice is cheap and cost effective for you, just stay by that. That's a great business choice if it works for you.

"If a player can be upgraded, it can be upgraded to run Java applications, obviously. If it can't it wasn't upgradeable in the first place. The ability to run Java or not is 100% a software issue, it is not, and can not possibly, theoretically or practically, be a hardware issue. There is no hardware required to run Java."

============================================================

QUOTE:

Early adopters of Blu-ray players may find themselves with inadequate hardware to support media using BD Java software.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6702

"blink, your comments about Java demonstrates that you do not have an understanding about Java or system programming or hardware design."

Oh yes apit.... it sure does look like I have no idea what I am talking about ;)

Ahem, from that article:

[i]“This might be bad news for early adopters who have already purchased a player, but it will not prevent them from playing back future Blu-ray movies. Owners of first generation Blu-ray players will probably not be able to use the full range of interactive features available on future Blu-ray Disc titles.”

In other words, for current owners, everything will be exactly the same for them. They *might* not get to use some of the new features, but then again, they didn't buy their players for those things anyway, since those features weren't available at the time. And anyway, it's still all "might" and "probably." Let's hold off on the complaints until there's actually something to complain about.

Is it a drag? Sure, *if* that turns out to be the case. But as you're so fond of pointing out, the number of people affected will only be a drop in the bucket. And has been pointed out to you, Toshiba also released non-upgradable players. There's also http://www.dailytech.com/Children+of+Men+Hits+Playback+Incompatibilities+on+HD+DVD/article6749.htmthis[/link], which was linked to from the article you linked to. So let's drop this as an arguing point, OK? :-)

Also, I don't see why you're surprised, or think it's silly that the all-in-one media center is the best player. Can you please clarify why you think that?

Blink, I don't think you are an idiot by any means, just not a technical guy. You take the verbal bait "Blu-ray Disc Java is coming this fall, and it may be incompatible with some of today's machines". The phasing "it may be incompatible with some " becomes fact and not speculation because you are looking for "problems". At no point in this article was any specific point or explanation why the B-java virtual system would not work.

" Early adopters of Blu-ray players may find themselves with inadequate hardware to support media using BD Java software." again the key word is "may"---vs.-- will. The difference between guessing and knowing. The simple fact not knowing the DSP design simply reflects a serious lack of knowledge of the hardware design.

The design of Sony's players are based on a single design, except the new high-end models, but Toshiba has evolved from having a weak DSP to a similar DSP design used by Sony. Of course, Sony firmware and focusing lens is the critical difference between systems today. Both use a micro-linux OS now. Again HD DVD copying BD. The only unique features that HD DVD has been in the front is PIP and some interactive issues.

What many people don't know is that the Sony's PSP UMD control language was the design model for most of the HDi. Sony felt that UMD control language was too limited for menu designs and other features that studios would want to design in the near future. MS people states a lot that Sony backed HDi in the beginning, but changed, but they fail to point out why. Sony first support was based on that they knew a lot of studios had experience with UMD from PSP,------but with feedback from a number of studios, they were told the studios wanted more, and wanted to be able to create unique features, different from other studios or directors,etc..no boilerplate designs.

blink:

This is your misunderstanding blink, nothing else. A piece of hardware, namely a player, consists of a few different components. The components are physical and electrical parts that read disk etc. These are again controlled by what is often called firmware. The firmware is software that is embedded on the device with certain types of media, ROM, EPROM and various newer alternatives. Some of this firmware is upgradeable, some of it is not. The main reason firmware didn't use to be upgradeable was that it was a lot cheaper to create ROM than easily upgradeable firmware. This is still the case, but upgradeable firmware is a lot cheaper than it used to be. This is why, for example, most DVD players of just a couple of years back were not upgradeable. They also didn't have to be, the DVD firmware has been functioning well for years and years, you don't really need upgrades.

Todays players come with upgradeable firmware. This is particularly the case for BD and HD DVD players, since these standards are still in a bit of flux. It is also far more user friendly to have an upgradeable player. The fact that you have an upgradeable player however, doesn't mean that most people will, or even know that they can upgrade their player. It takes a call to the producer, a connection to the internet or something like that to enable an upgrade.

BD players released earlier this year came with firmware that is upgradeable, but it doesn't include Java. Anyone who buys this hardware will not be able to play BD-J disks. That doesn't mean that it is not possible to upgrade these players to play BD-J disks, but currently their hardware (with the associated firmware/software) can't play them. An upgrade from the supplier should enable them to use BD-J disks, that is, unless the player was made by someone who decided that upgrades of this kind were not needed. It is only a matter of software, not hardware, but is the software embedded in their player, or hardware if you wish.

So, yes, blink, your understanding of this topic is flawed, and you read an article that you do not understand, and you use it to further enhance your lack of understanding (not a good thing to enhance) of the topic.

The article is correct, their hardware is currently not capable of making use of a BD-J enabled disk. That doesn't mean it is not upgradeable to do this. If it has an internet connection or in other ways have the ability to upgrade its firmware/software, then it should be easy enough to upgrade these players. The download, depending on what CPU is sitting in the player, should be less than 10 megabytes.

My criticism of you has been proven correct through your latest posting blink. You talk with huge amounts of confidence about things you actually do not know anything about. You are quite clearly not a technical person, and your grasp of this kind of technology is tenuous at best. If you want peoples respect, don't talk with this amount of confidence about topics on which you clearly have extremely limited knowledge.

"My criticism of you has been proven correct through your latest posting blink."
===================================================
LOL.

First you start out by saying:
"Which of the current Blu-Ray players are not upgradeable? To my knowledge all of the current Blu-Ray players are upgradeable. Who is it that you are feeling sorry for?" WRONG

Then you say it's a software issue (when it is IN FACT a hardware issue)
WRONG

And NOW you are saying.... even though it IS a hardware issue... you should STILL be able to upgrade

Would you like to go so far out of this world and start a debate on where you plan on GETTING the hardware for the upgrades?? See... because hardware is not quite the same as software, be it in the form of java, c+, basic, hex...etc, which can be loaded into ANY Eprom, EEprom... or even flash. You can run it through ram, dram, sram...write it onto a dvd.cd, or blu ray disk...etc. Hardware on the other hand, is VERY specific. Sure you can do basic things like use a couple of 1K resistors in series with each other to come up with a 2K resistor, or use 2 polarized caps in parallel to come up with a non polarized cap for filtering high frequency sounds for tweeters. You can even substitute simple chips like the 741 op amp for the LM324... it's a little bit more work since the 741 is a single op amp in a 8-pin package as opposed to the 4 op amps in a 14-pin package... but if you're handy with a soldering iron (and I am). But there are certain limits to this... you CAN NOT for example swap out a 8088 for q6600 quad core... it's simply impossible.

If you are LUCKY and a standard was followed like pci, or pcie then the job of creating hardware becomes a little easier. But then we all know how well these blu ray machines have adhered to a set standard.

And the punch line to this is that you accuse ME of misunderstanding and not being technical!? (And BTW: Video is a simple hobby to me, and I make a few bucks on the side with it... my real day job.... I'm an Engineer for the Province of Manitoba)

Come on.....You have been PROVEN wrong.... accept it. Because of Blu ray's inability to commit to a set standard in the way that HD DVD has, a whole pile of legacy machines will have been created.... and there is little that can be done about it. Those that own these older machines... (and that's pretty much everybody that owns a bd PLAYER), are just plain out of luck with the new interactive features.

blink

Good, since you are such a great engineer, please explain to the world what hardware upgrade (soldering, parts change etc) that is required for an embedded system to run Java. Please. Enlighten us We are all interested.

blink

Yeah, right. When a journalist uses words like "might" and "probably" we have scientific evidence for both this and that. Goodness you are sad.

Terje... you just don't get it do ya...

Software CONTROLS hardware.... it does not carry the task out. Your brain controls your legs... but if you have no legs, you can do all the thinking in the world and you won't go anywhere. If the machines lack the proper hardware to carry out the tasks, then the tasks can not be completed. Take the cpu out of your computer and see if your OS starts.

Software and hardware work hand in hand... one is totally useless without the other.

Blink, all the hardware does is read data from a disk. The rest is pretty much software. Kind of like how you can install (or choose not to install) JAVA on your computer. You don't need a "JAVA-enabled" computer, do you? You don't need hardware upgrades to run JAVA, do you?

The only question is whether the specific drives *allow* firmware upgrades. As has been pointed out, while some products do (such as my new Oppo DVD player), not all do. So that's the hardware part that might limit the upgrade to the new spec. But again, that's a manufacturer being cheap, not an inherent problem with BR.

"Blink, all the hardware does is read data from a disk. "
===========================================
No.

Specific pieces of hardware carry out specific duties. In a computer the software does the directing, a cpu does the thinking, ram does the remembering, a video card does the displaying... etc. There is a specific piece of hardware dedicated to a specific chore. You can't make ram do the displaying, because it was not designed to display. Everything tied together makes a computer. Leave so much as ONE ingredient out of the formula and you have a lot of electronics.... but not a computer.

Now I have NO idea what hardware has been omitted from the BD machines that are being discussed... but they are no different than a computer.. you need a laser to do the reading, a drive to do the spinning, a cpu (or prom of some kind) to do the thinking... etc... etc. Omit ONE item from the mix and you no longer have a BD player... or in this case a machine that is not upgradeable because it lacks the specific hardware to carry out the specific chore that the program (java) wants carried out

What ever the right or wrongs of any of our opinions or of our corporate affiliations, the HD HDV vs. BluRay war will be won and lost on the floor of Best Buy by those who know least. Why can't the pros who run the technology corporations make a pro decision before it gets to the uneducated masses. This is one of the times the free market lets us down.

blink

Noooo, are you sure? Dude, I am a software developer, and I have developed embedded software for these types of devices for years. I know. Now, in a Blu-Ray player there is enough hardware to run software, otherwise the Blu-Ray player wouldn't function. You have stated that the player needs a hardware upgrade to run Java. Can you please enlighten the world on what hardware specifically Java needs to run? Hardware that is not in place in any Blu-Ray player no. Use your imagination.

blink:

Keep stating the blatantly obvious please. But hey, that's fun. Rain is wet. Anyway. Yes, specific hardware carries out specific tasks. The tray mechanism is used to pull the tray in and out, the spin engine spins the disk etc.

In all, the drive does the following: It spins up a disk, focuses a laser, uses the laser to read data off the disk, runs software to process the data on the disk. The data can be menus, movies, sound etc. The processing includes feeding the data to the appropriate DSP etc. In order to accomplish these tasks the player has a general CPU, one or more DSPs, RAM, ROM and probably quite a few more components.

The data on the disk can be anything, and what the player does with that data is entirely dependent on the software that sits in the player. The data can, for example, be a Java application, but in order for the player to be able to run that Java application, it will need a Java interpreter. To add a Java interpreter to the firmware in any sensibly designed player you need to upgrade the firmware, usually in an EPROM somewhere. That is a software update and can be accomplished over an internet connection or by inserting a special disk into the player.

If a player is upgradeable, it should be possible, with no major effort, to add a Java interpreter to the player. It is only software. If you have a generic computer (which these players have) it can run Java. There is nothing in Java that requires hardware above and beyond a generic computer. Any generic computer can run Java software.

Your statement is that the player needs a hardware upgrade to run Java. Can you please elaborate on what you think that hardware might be?

blink

This is pure rubbish, but I think you know that. If I remove my soundcard from my PC it will work perfectly. If I remove my fire wire card from my PC it works perfectly. I have a PC in my bedroom that doesn't even have a graphics card, it works perfectly fine as my file, scan and print server.

blink

Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. As you point out, a BD player needs a CPU, memory etc to run the software that is needed to play a BD disk. Omit one of the components, and it can not run this type of software and it is no longer a BD player. The problem for you is that Java has no requirements above and beyond a generic computer, which any BD player must be. So, if a player can run BD disks, and it is software upgradeable, then it can be upgraded to run Java software. It's that easy. If it can run software, it can run Java. Simple as that. Java has absolutely no requirements outside of what any software has. None.

If you had been knowledgeable about Java, you would have known this, and you wouldn't have persisted in stating something that (proabably a very ignorant) journalist said (they are all pretty ignorant) was absolute irrefutable fact. You see, the facts as presented by the journalist made no logical sense, and you should have noticed that and shut up about it.

On the other hand, if the player isn't software upgradeable, then it is just a badly designed player, and that has nothing to do with BD or HD DVD. You can obviously also create non-upgradeable HD DVD players if you are a bad hardware designer.

Noooo, are you sure? Dude, I am a software developer, and I have developed embedded software for these types of devices for years. I know. Now, in a Blu-Ray player there is enough hardware to run software

Yes... I am sure. Blu ray players have been set up to accomplish a particular task... play movies... and not much more. Toshiba on the other hand has gone very much the other way... they have done the best they can to future proof their machines... there is a lot of extra hardware located in a Toshiba box that just plain isn't getting used right now. Just as an example, on my Tosh A1 there are 2 usb ports in the front panel. Right now they are dead... they serve no useful purpose. But because the hardware already exists, all that is required is a firmware upgrade with a set of instructions through the mandatory modems, and they can be used for what ever purpose. Now that doesn't mean that Tosh machines ARE TOTALLY future proof... it simply means they have done what they can.... and that's all that one can ask... or do.

I have Noooo idea what hardware is missing from BD players. Could be in the video end... the memory end... 100 different places. I have no real particular interest in learning too much about them at this stage of the game. all I know is that's the claim from several different sources now and it is ENTIRELY possible to not have the proper hardware. Sony, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't said much about this either... which kind of speaks volumes.

It is only software. If you have a generic computer (which these players have) it can run Java.
Amazing... you just don't get it!!?!? I can load Sony vegas onto just about any computer... but if I don't have a IEEE port then I can't capture until I PHYSICALLY add a firewire card. If you can't grasp this, then I can't explain it any better than that.

This is pure rubbish, but I think you know that. If I remove my soundcard from my PC it will work perfectly.
No it doesn't... you no longer get sound!!!!! Everything that requires your sound card now ceases to function. Pull your soundcard and try to listen to a cd.

It's that easy. If it can run software, it can run Java. Simple as that. Java has absolutely no requirements outside of what any software has. None.
Running java IS NOT the issue. If the hardware is not there to carry out the instructions... then nothing gets done Software issues instructions to various bits and pieces of hardware... and it is the hardware that carries out the work. I'm sorry guy, I can't explain it any better than that. If you can't get a grasp on that then there is little more that I can say or do to make you see it. If you don't believe this is a hardware issue, then fine... on October 31, one way or the other it will become clear.

But as far as this goes... I don't mind healthy debate, but this has gotten just plain silly, and have don't feel like wasting anymore of my time on it.