Well you know....

I read words on the page right when I am here burning and thinking the same thing. Whens the last time I had nothing to say? :) Im Portagee and proud of it, a mouth that can run nonstop.

This time Im just so frustrated. I read your very well done article and just flopped around like a fish

You know I could write on this for days and days

You remember in the vegas beta 2 days how much I kicked and screamed, pleaded begged, whatever

Vegas 2 couldve been a serious PT killer, to the point where PT never even would have gained the marketshare and reputation it did. I believe that with all my heart.

Core features were just ignored. This was supposed to be an audio app back then. We needed a way to monitor, back then! Now we are just getting the basics covered, but in such an early way that we still gotta get enough efficiency to use it in the real world.

Monitoring, VST, tempo changes. Systems were already in place to take ful advantage and make vegas kick the hell out of everything else. SF didnt want to get into steinberg's territory like asio or vst, but offered nothing to take its place. How long did we wait for fx parameter automation?

The philosophy is what frustrates me.

I know I should just heed the words, spoken many times " vegas is not a daw it is an nle"

but I dont want to believe it. The GUI holds me here and Im sure it holds many others as well, but its sad. We get our asses handed to us almost everywhere else BUT the gui. Some things about vegas are SO scary to use in front of customers, but if they hang long enough, they do see most of its good side.

Curses to the SF team for making such a perfect GUI. If it hadnt happened, I bet samplitude wouldnt seem so horrible and Id be just fine playing with it

Sigh....I hate threads like this. No matter what I say, somebody will take it the wrong way or start telling the world that the sky is falling and Vegas is doomed.

Vegas has grown and continues to grow - in both the audio and video NLE feature sets. It has hardly stood still since Vegas Audio was a seperate skew.

Vegas is far from a dead end as far as audio centric users go. I am not saying anything any of you haven't said directly or indirectly when I say we don't compete against SONAR, Nuendo, Logic.

These other tools do MIDI. That is a HUGE difference. You want MIDI, Vegas is just not going to help out here. Yes, we provide workable solutions - Red talks about how he slaves Vision to Vegas all the time.

However, head to head for audio production, Vegas kicks their but IMHO. They can't touch us.

Everybody here wants things. I understand that. If some of you believe that Vegas is dead because we don't provide the features that you want, then I there is nothing I can say.

Vegas as an audio tool is far from dead and no where near obsolete. Nothing beats its editing capabilities or the ease at which it lets you do things.

What is wrong with this? I just can't figure out what is wrong with being really good - hell, the damn best - at what it does?

Does not having ReWire Mixer support or ASIO Direct Monitoring , or some other feature prevent work from getting done? The type of work that Vegas has always allowed and intended to be done?

What are you guys trying to tell me? You've been saying the same things for years, and I always tell you the same things. We never stand still.

We are rarely the first to the party. However, I believe we do it better when we do finally get there.

You know I can't tell you what will or will not happen in the future.

I think I should stick to tech questions and leave the guessing on the future of Vegas to all of you. You don't understand me and I nothing I can say will ever change anything here.

I think you will all be pleased with the next release of Vegas.

Peter

Depends on how you look at it:

Vegas is a video app with GREAT ancillary audio features.

or

Vegas is a Multitrack audio editor with UNBELIEVABLE Video features.

What does Vegas not do that it set out to do?

Vegas is a mulitrack, non-destructive Non Linear Editor for both Audio and Video. I does this exceptionally well.

So - other than MIDI - what is Vegas not doing that it must do?

Peter

Since many of us will bring in audio files with tempo changes I think being able to at least insert the changes into Vegas' timeline when using the measure/beat display will help a lot in keeping the audio and visuals 'in sync'.

"The philosophy is what frustrates me."

Well that's easily understandable, because the philosphy changes with the wind.

Let me share my own personal opinion how things went down on the business side, summarized in a paraphrased history story of events. And Yes, as Peter will clearly point out this is MY OPINION.

Originally, as I recall the marketing words of yesteryear where "Vegas Pro 1.0", the follow up multitrack solution you're looking for based off of the success of the industry leading PC audio editor Sound Forge. Based on the same simplified yet powerful user interface as Sound Forge, introducing Vegas Pro 1.0. You know what happened there? There was no competition on the PC side for Sound Forge, thus it was an industry leader. It hardly had any competition on the MAC side also, there was Sound Designer and Peak. The problem with Vegas when it was released there was too many choices, unlike Forge which had very few choices when it was first released. For Vegas, you had Cubase, Logic, Cool Edit, Samplitude,Cakewalk, ProTools on WinNT, SAW and almost identical choices on the MAC side along with Digital Performer. Vegas found itself in the middle of a competitive market that was already spread thin and they assumed everyone that was using Sound Forge, would of course purchase Vegas. That forecast must have fell short, thus they had to look for another market that wasn't so filled with choices. Consideration: Midi sequencer? Nope, we got Logic, Cakewalk, Cubase, Digital Performer and Vision filling that market.(Thus why you don't see a full featured midi sequencer here) Hmmm? What about Video editors? Premiere is pretty cumbersome and every edit causes a prerender before you can see your edit. FCP is in an infancy stage where it is mostly pro-sumer at best. Avid cost you $100K. Hey, here's a void in this market we can fill to make up for the market share we're lacking in the DAW market because there's too many choices being developed over there. So rather than going head to head with those apps, let's focus on expanding the market for Vegas, so that we attrack both Video and Audio users. We'll base the Video editing off of how we handle audio, since the audio users seem to love that interface, so the video editor user will be able to catch right on. Vegas Video 2.0, then Vegas Video 3.0. Hey, that seemed to work, but wait now we actually have more video user sales than audio user sales. Hey, that worked out better than we expected. Let's focus in on further developing the Video features to further make a solid stance in that market because, the competition doesn't seem to be growing as it is still on the audio side, and of course we don't want to totally abandon our original audio user customers, because that would look bad overall for both sides. So let's continue to develop audio features, but that isn't going to be our main focus, because it's no longer our main sales revenue. Vegas 4.0. Hey, we're majorly falling behind on the Audio features and those users are making a lot of noise now, we better make a significant addition to the audio side features for 5.0, and of course we don't want to lose all those video users we've acquired, so let's do a 50%audio feature, 50% video feature development plan. Vegas 5.0. Wow!!! Even with our 50/50 plan a lot of our video users seem upset because they feel too many audio features where added and not enough video features and that group is now our core sales of Vegas because, we've fallen behind the pack on the audio side. Vegas 6. (Let's try and guess where that developments is heading shall we? I don't think we have to guess at all, if my history lesson is at all true.) Hey, new outlook for Vegas. We know we originally intended it to be developed to be the best DAW out there, but we found there where too many choices and we didn't hit our mark on this target. So rather than look at it negatively, that we're trailing the competition in the DAW user arena, we can look at it positively that we're leading the competition on the Video NLE side by having the far superior audio features for an NLE. Ok, great idea Vegas is no longer a DAW, it's now strictly an NLE with strong "DAW like" features. OK...Great, our video users will love it!!! Let's go with that. Wait!!...Wait!!! What about Acid, should we develop that to be our new dedicated DAW solution? Hmmmm? Well Sonar is a DAW and it's getting ACID looping features now and now there's this Ableton Live which is stirring up alot of noise as far as DAW and looping features and all the other DAWS are taking on Acid looping features and as we learned from our Vegas experience that we couldn't go head to head in that market.......so how about this? We create our own market and proclaim Acid to be a "Loop Sequencer", and then we just focus our development on Acid's loop sequencing features. Yeah, that's brilliant!!! We create our own market, where there's no one else that can compete with us. Acid is in the "Loop sequencer" maket.

How's my story telling? You have to picture a couple product development directors having this discussion.

I think it's time to dust off my Atari 1040ST and commission HallSound to write a nice little sequencer that synchs perfectly to Vegas!

It's not just Red's opinion. It is shared by many other customers, and would be customers.
It's funny that when problems like this shows up in ONLY Vegas, it's the other party's problem to fix it, even tho their product work well with every other application.
You're on your good way to have a lot of non-customers soon, with this approach.
Oh, sorry, I forgot that the video market is the important one.

"I say we don't compete against SONAR, Nuendo, Logic. "

- No man, you could have provided the best competition against ProTools, Sequoia/Samplitude and even Soundscape, and been a major player amongst the big pro studio applications - if you only wanted to.
Being owned by Sony nowadays could provide a special accustomed hardware unit to work with the SW. But you dropped the ball somewhere.... or chose to play in another ballpark.... or whatever.

"How's my story telling?"

- I think it's pretty dead on, as everything you've said in this thread.

I really shouldn't say "I told ya so!"... *pointing out at this forum*

There is already Creator for Atari doing that :>)
I would like Creator for PC.
That would be something!

"I think it's pretty dead on, as everything you've said in this thread"

uh ahh ahh...you can't say that. Now this is MY viewpoint and just my "opinion". We can't have a bunch of users start thinking the same thing and agreeing on everything. I'm just someone wiho's been following these products since v1.0 and reading posts, where along with helping users out I've been listening to what they're looking for and then listening to the Sony replies. I don't always agree with what the user wants is the best thing, especially if I find there's already a way to accomplish the same task another way, and there's not a way to do something else. But, eventually if you got quite a few users saying the same thing, then you have to say, there's a demand for it, so we need to put it in and make it work how people want to work. So anyways, I think I may have developed some insight over the years of using the products, and reading the forums.

Peter Said:
"So - other than MIDI - what is Vegas not doing that it must do?"

Let's not narrow it down to Vegas, let's look at Acid also. You say Vegas is an NLE first and foremost. You know what I can live with that, we can let the Video users have their Video NLE with great audio features. What we need is Acid to become a DAW.
What does Acid need then?
1. Majorly improved midi sequencing features to become a full featured midi sequencer.
2. Remove the "Acid Track" concept of 1 track per media file, and use the Vegas style track, except now the Vegas type track can have a property selector like "Make Acid Track", so now you have your Acid paint brush ability and tracks can function like they currently do in Acid. Except now you have the best of both worlds. You have the freedom of moving events anywhere on different tracks with Vegas style editing capabilities, plus you have a track type that makes it simple to assemble a loop sequence if you choose. Vegas/Acid track concept, giving the user the best of both worlds.

3. Mutli-track Recording with punch-in,input monitoring...etc (same as Vegas)
4. Ext. Hardware controler support.

Basically Peter the concept is easy. We want either Vegas with all the Acid features, or we want Acid with all the Vegas audio features.

We don't want an NLE, we don't want a loop sequencer, we want the best damn multitrack recorder/editor/mixer, we want the best loop sequencer, and we want the best midi sequencer. 2 out of the 3 you already have, but they're seperated with only Midi clock to tie them together, where there's a bunch of better ways to truly interface them together. It's a marriage waiting to happen and all your users are watching the two with anticipating stares as their 2 app faces are inches apart,growing closer and closer with every new release, and everyone's wondering, "are they ever going to kiss?" Damn it Peter, shove their faces together, then further develop the midi sequencing features from Acid and you have the best damn DAW out there. That's what we want. We don't care if it's easier to move the Acid features into Vegas, or if it's easier to move the Vegas audio features into Acid.

Summary:
Vegas Audio+Acid+full featured midi sequencer=DAW that we want

It's like you guys are so close, and like I said we're all sitting here with our eyes peeled wide open going, "When the heck is it going to happen?". Peter the combination of these 2 apps, with increased midi functionality is what the Acid users are looking for, and what us Vegas audio users are looking for. Everyone using these 2 apps can envision this marriage, and are frustrated because it's taking so long for you guys to belly up and do it, but we keep our hopes up because it seems like you're so close. You have your product seperation between Acid and Vegas. Vegas is the NLE, for users looking for the best Video editing app, where the development can focus on that feature set. Then Acid could be the DAW for audio users and it's development can focus on the latest eccential new audio features. Everyone's happy!!! The Video users get the video features they want, with minor audio feature enhancements, and the Audio users get a full featured DAW, with a Video track to sync their audio project to and it's more musical with VSTi, midi, Rewire.

This should be obvious. Goto the Acid forum and what are users asking for in Acid? Well a lot are asking for the features that are already in Vegas and then add additional midi sequencing features. Goto this Vegas audio forum and what is everyone asking for? Vegas audio users are asking for more Acid features as well as midi tracks. This marriage makes sense and would make your Video users happy, your audio users happy, and the users that do both still have Vegas with it's powerful audio features.

Wow, what did I miss here...
Must be the semi-annual rant thread.

I came soooo close to switching to Samplitude when Vegas 5 came out, but ultimately decided to stick it out a bit longer. I'm ever hopeful for the next version, but...

What Red just said pretty much sums it up. I use Acid and Vegas and have to export/import files or use MIDI clock to sync them and it is pretty clumsy and time consuming. If there were no other features added, but just to have a combined app. of what we have now, it would absolutely be the most efficient music production software available.

Funny thing is, there is a huge uproar for the same thing in the ACID forums. So you see, it is really a very common thing to want.

BTW: If you decide to do it, make it stable like Vegas, not unstable like ACID.

>>We want either Vegas with all the Acid features, or we want Acid with all the Vegas audio features.
<<

You have been pontificating on this for such a long time. (You forgot to bring
up Vision this time.)

We are what we are and we do what we do.

What else can I say other than...

Or products improve and advance with each new release.

Peter

<BG>

HallSound -- geeze - I havn't heard that name in a few years.

(I still have a 1040!!, though the emulators blow it out of the water. Just can't give up my Dr. Ts or this one game that I had back in the late 80's.)

Peter

I am not discounting Red's or any other opinion. Yes, customer opinion and needs are what drive us. We constantly review what users ask and compare it to what we do. The problem is that if 10 users want 10 different things, but we only do 3 of them, then we suck and don't care in the minds of 70%.

People wanted External Surface control : We provided it
People wanted input monitoring with FX : we did it

Then I hear:

"Hey, why didn't you do this? !!?? I don't care about those things, I want this. You guys are lame if you don't do this. Also, what about those 100 other things I asked for? When?When? When?"

I also hear :

"XYZ has always done this? Why don't you? In fact I like how XYZ does this and that. Can't you do it they way they do it?"

The tool does what it does. It always adds more and improves. We have lots of very happy customers. We also have customers that want more. We do the best we can to balance what we do and how we do it. What else can I say.

Peter

If we break it down that way, Peter, as in multitrack, Ill tell you what it can't do.

A multitrack requires monitoring.A guitar player can't play with 12 mS latency, neither can a drummer. And 12 mS is pushing your cpu HARD and at least for me, too unstable to run.

There are some workarounds though, or could be. With certain soundcards, you have input to output direct monitoring capabilities, with only converter latencies to deal with which are negligeable. You can set up a mix their that works for everyone, during the initial first tracking pass, but a big problem then pops up.

Now you have one mix that is the monitoring system, or you have all the monitoring system at zero, and all the converter outs going to a console, functionally the same thing. But then on playback you have the Vegas mix. Every time you change one, you must change the other or people start freaking out, so you gotta tapdance and constantly move levels around.

One fix for this would be allowing for mono busses, and then allowing each mono track to go out its own mono buss. With stereo, either you have to throw away half of your converter outputs, or you have to get into hard panning all the channels which can make for some ugly scenarios. It is doable, but barely.

ASIO DM, combining cubendo's mono/stereo output capability, plus samplitude's parallel send capability would be ideal, and most like the multitrack customers are used to since time past, and would be a lot less likely to freak them out the way vegas does.

With the addition of Mackie control support ( and hopefully after some major anti glitch tweaks for the interface between the two ) I see no need for the console at all, or any soundcards' monitoring apps, if we just had well implemented ASIO DM. Vegas is inches away from being what it set out to be in Vegas 1, INCHES! Not only a multitrack, but a mixer as well, along with its nearly 100% perfect editing capabilities. Scratch that, it was a perfect editor long ago, but we keep getting spoiled by new editing features you make, so you keep raising where that 100% is.

You guys make it sound easy to record midi alongside the audio, but for me, its already slamming the cpu so hard I dont dare run another app. Sometimes we need to record sequences at the same time, I really wish there were an internal way to do this, but its not at the top of my list.

"You have been pontificating on this for such a long time."

Yeah, it's pitiful isn't it? You have a entire audio user base that is pitiful for saying the same thing for a long time. I'm just the one speaking the loudest, I bet you won't find a user in here that disagrees with this or any over in the Acid forum for that matter. The thing that I can admire about Vision is when a new feature was developed and they saw the potential of how it could enhance their product, they jumped on it. Vision stopped development in 2000. It has Rewire, VST support, VSTi capability, ASIO driver support, 24bit audio support,plugin automation as well as being a full featured midi sequencer that Acid can't hold a candle too. Here it is 2005 and you guys are just catching up to an app that's been dead for 5 years. What's that tell you? Oh and by the way, they did it all with an elegant UI that users preferred over the competition Digital Performer.

FWIW, here's my vote to make the transition into a fully functional DAW. I use whatever tools are required (competing products), but I continue to use and enjoy using Vegas. I would like to see it become a complete audio product.

People in this thread are making some really strong, albeit redundant, arguments and seem to really be tied to and interested in using Vegas/ACID.......there seems to be a natural progression that should be completed.

Just my $.02

This is a pretty revealing thread. It has given voice to a bunch of issues that have been simmering away under the surface for a long time.

I don’t see any of this going away anytime soon. Some of the stuff in here is going to eat away at people for a long time. It’s got that Acid 4 Rewire vibe to it brewing.

I’m sorry Peter, again I don’t want this to sound aggressive, but I think that a third party looking at this would conclude that this company is out of touch with their users. It’s so obvious these issues strike a huge chord with a great many people.

Your customers are giving you a hell of a lot of very, very, very, very explicit feedback. But you are wandering around, arms in the air, saying that you simply can’t understand why they want these features.

That is just screaming from the rooftops. It has set ‘Sony is definitely not with the program’ alarm bells ringing in everyone’s heads.

We keep on going over the same ground, we keep making the same redundant points over and over and over again because we are not getting listened to.

We don’t care that Rewire may not ‘map well to medium/longer form video creation/editing’? Why should we? That is meaningless to your users.

"It has set ‘Sony is definitely not with the program’ "

The problem is that they believe they are with the program. It is us as users who are not with the program, is the feeling I get back from Peter's comments. We know what we want, but the message we're being told is that we are using the wrong product, because what we want is not what those programs are about. They consciously choose to not enter into the DAW market, the only problem is they forgot to tell us that. We have what we paid for. Acid is a loop sequencer, and that's what it's going to remain. Vegas was originally a DAW that turned it's hat around and became an NLE and that's what it's going to remain. Now imagine if Cakewalk would have followed the same business strategy. There would be no Sonar and Cakewalk would still be a midi sequencing program and the same goes for Cubase if Steiny had the same strategy. At this point I have no hope that things are ever going to change and if it does, it's going to be another 5 years from now before it's completed for what we're asking for today.

Before now the only time I heard the terms "Linear editor" and "Non Linear Editor" was when I was working with a video editor, and he was teaching me how to edit video using 3 Beta SP decks and I guess I was using a "Linear editor". I just wish someone would have explained to me what a NLE (ie Non-Liner editor) is and a "Linear editor" is, so at least now I would know what the hell it is I have installed on my PC and what I should expect from it.

I personally don't feel the External Control support is much to trumpet right now - neither my Mackie HUI nor my O1V96 seem to be suitable for use with Vegas yet they both have the capability with other software.

It's such a shame to have to downgrade one's hopes and expectations for future releases of Vegas. Right now the most I can hope for in version 6 is that it supports something other than Mackie Universal + "generic"; and that the key mapping is tidied up + stops losing its settings!

This is my strategy to avoid disappointment!!

I give up.

Forgive me as I go running into the next room, flailing my arms, totaly clueless about what our users want.

Sigh...

Peter