WE the people, in search of a more perfect V10...


[r]Evolution wrote on 4/23/2012, 4:46 PM
uhhh... did you say v10?

SCS... PLEASE, don't waste your time on anything for v10!
not that you would.
Get v11, v12, etc right.
Soniclight wrote on 4/23/2012, 6:13 PM
"uhhh... did you say v10?
There are plenty of other threads on the more recent versions and by the number of postings in this one (145 as of right now), there are legit complaints for v10. Not everyone can afford to upgrade and the major problems did start in v10 onward.

There are very senior members here that share this view of SCS seemingly dropping the ball on some things since the last couple of versions. I'm a relative newbie in that I started with v6.

So while I understand your emphasis on current version/s as mirrored by comments by others, people have legitimate concerns for their v10. I am one of those (I have 10e).
johnmeyer wrote on 4/23/2012, 10:59 PM
SCS... PLEASE, don't waste your time on anything for v10!I've got to disagree with that. Most companies continue to provide support -- and updates -- for older versions, even after new versions are released. Microsoft obviously does this with most of their products, releasing all sorts of bug patches even after an entirely new O/S has been released. As another example, I'm still using Firefox 3.6 and I can still get updates for that which fix both security problems and also minor bugs.

Also, I would even question the ethics of "forcing" people to upgrade just to get fixes for bugs in previous versions. This is especially troublesome when those bugs continue to fester and remain unfixed for several releases.

It is this unwillingness, or inability, to fix bugs that has upset so many Vegas users. Many have dealt with various incarnations of the "black frame" problems (which are probably more than one issue) going back almost to Vegas 7. The myriad of crashing problems seems to have started in Vegas 10, but certainly was not fixed in Vegas 11.

I can go on, but the point is that there is nothing "wasted" by fixing bugs in both existing and even previous versions if it helps to make customers more satisfied and therefore more loyal. In addition, it gives SCS a much stronger platform from which to release new versions. As it stands now, an awful lot of people -- myself included -- will not upgrade to version 12 until version 11 (and 10) are made to work, or until about a year has gone by (after a version 12 is released) and dozens and dozens of people report that the beast is finally tamed and is once again stable.

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2012, 1:16 AM
When this thread started I was under the impression that SCS had fixed the "replaced clips" bug in V11, because of an item in the V11 release notes, so I thought that a V10f release with the same bug fix might be pretty simple and quick to release. I also hoped such a release might improve the "black clips" problem, and the "phantom keyframes" problem.

However the situation has changed now, since apparently SCS have been unable to fully solve the "replaced clips" bug in V11, and black clips/frames problems are reportedly still much in existence too. So while an improved V10 would be most welcome, it's not as simple as it previously seemed to be.
Grazie wrote on 4/24/2012, 2:48 AM
Nicely put Nick.

And nicely put John.

Now, where does that leave us? Is there a convergence of observations to get us to mutually assured benefit?

While we take up our various points, believe me I've got a foot in both "camps", what do you think SCS make from these apparently divergent positions?


farss wrote on 4/24/2012, 7:03 AM
"Is there a convergence of observations to get us to mutually assured benefit?"

Yes, each new version generally forms the foundations for the next. You start to build a new version without fixing the problems in the previous and the next is on less stable footings than the previous because it weighs more.
Excuse the poor building metaphors but I think the comparison is valid.
Using the same metaphor as you add more levels problems that arose in the building of the lower levels become harder to fix.

For example, the black frame bug. Apparently the cause is unknown. It could be anything and it could be due to an oversight in the architecture. If that's the case a considerable amount of code may have to be rewritten and the amount increases as you write more code. Going forward with unknown bugs can be very risky, not only does it annoy the users, it can cost a lot of time and money to fix the problem.

In summary, fixing the problems in a previous version is anything but a waste of time when the same bugs have been carried forward into a later release, fix the problem in Version X and you know how to fix the problem in Version X + 1 and X + 2. The only valid issue I see here is to ponder the merit of allocating resources to a new version before knowing that the current code was clean.

Laurence wrote on 4/24/2012, 9:54 PM
I have already made up my mind that if Vegas 12 gets released before V11 is workable, I'm leaving this platform. I have a lot of plugins and this will be an expensive and painful move, but I'm not going to keep supporting software that makes me go back two or three generations just to get anything done.
ushere wrote on 4/24/2012, 11:55 PM
+1 laurence
MUTTLEY wrote on 4/25/2012, 1:11 AM
Well Laurence, if you go that route I'll be the first to shake your hand as you walk out the door. and am personally hoping 3 or more others may join ya in that. I can say without fear or contradiction that I have never enjoyed these forums less than I have these days in my 10 being a guest here. These days it seems like the anti-Sony sentiment can't be left out of a thread. Someone asks about something and 5 or more just start basing away at their old agenda. Then we have all these past members that want to come back and and crap all over the boards, I swear to god its like a dude who cant take no from a girl and stalks her till the cops are called.

It seriously is not a healthy thing we have going on. If youve posted your problem once, drop it, find a fix, do something other then just verbally pooping all over this place. It's lame, Really, it has to stop already. Your arrogant fueled sense of self entitlement does nothing to make you appear either smart nor rational.

If youre using other software already and are still here just to be some kind of self appointed rabble rouser. please save that garbage for the forums that are based on your "new" editing software which I'm sure never crashes, behaves oddly, doesnt work with this file format or that.

Just shut up,, I'm asking. This used to be a place of encouragement and a place where new users could find answers and feel safe enough to post questions and get help, thats how it was when I got here. You are doing more harm then good on every level. So poop and get off the pot, youve had your say with hundreds of the same posts.

Do what ya gotta do for your business, I respect everyone choice to try a different NLE, but dont come swaddling back like you got the magic ticket for everyone else just because it works for you, by all means stick with it but post on their forums and leave your trash talk to over there.

Meanwhile Im still running like a champ, both on my fairly beefy home built as well as my not so beefy laptop.

Ex-Sony peeps please move on. People who just want to throw the same tired arguments around please move on. People who can only paint Sony Vegas in a bad light, move on. You've said it all already a million times, we know, we dont care, do more doing and get out. You are free, you know, to not use Vegas. But using their forum to continually tell everyone your opinion of them sucking, well, its just tired. Here's a thought, start your own forum but for gods sake stop polluting ours.

I feel sorry for any new user having to read these troll posts. Just knock it off already, I'm sick of it. Say something nice or dont say anything at all. Really, either change your tone, change mood, or just change your software and move along.

Underground Planet

Grazie wrote on 4/25/2012, 1:26 AM
Sorry, Ray, didn't quite catch that?

I agree with you, in a as much as these are trying times for some of us. I think I may have a solution: Report bugs and THEN report back here you have reported them.

These are trying times. It is time to dig deep for Vegas. Those that are fine and dandy with VP11 - great! But those of us - I too have a beefy machine - are getting some truly challenging bugs. SCS are working on them and are trying to rectify them. Am I impatient? Sure. Am I worried that my 10 years with Vegas is at risk? Sure. Do I want better for Vegas11? Yes.

Dig Deep! And then some.


ushere wrote on 4/25/2012, 2:30 AM
hi ray,

sorry to read you're 'sick of it', and so am i....

you think i (and the many others) come here to berate sony for fun?

i have made a living from video and tv production for over 40 years, however, my ability to continue doing so is now severely hampered by using a flawed product, which i paid for in the belief it was a 'professional' tool and my upgrade was not only offering me more tools (even though the ones i wanted and requested were ignored), but fixing existing ones.eg.

Fixed an issue that could cause events to use the wrong media in certain circumstances (seen when project is later loaded).

it doesn't seem to matter that i / we report problems since they seem to be falling on deaf ears. bugs such as black frames, and the true show stopper (for me at least, and the main concern for my future with vegas) is the supposedly fixed one - random replacement of media (which has been plaguing vegas for a LONG time).

i presume you've never experienced this problem?

you are among the most talented people on this board, and i wholeheartedly admire your work, but to ask people who have genuine problems to 'shut up' is somewhat 'arrogant' on your part. you think i like writing this, that i have nothing better to do than waste my time sorting out jumbled clips?

ray, i too wish this forum was full of rosy, self-congratulatory, vegas users like it used to be (i was one a few years back), but it isn't, for obvious reasons, and if i / we can't vent our annoyance somewhere where people will understand our frustration, then where can we?

i just hope you never experience this random replacement of media, because i guarantee you you will not be a happy vegas user...

btw. i'm still here and hanging in because i still think vegas IS the best nle (IF these bugs can be sorted out), i've used it professionally since ver 4 and have a great deal of money invested in plug-ins, and time in using it. I do NOT want to migrate to cs6 (which i'm buying mainly for ps, but with edu discount the production bundle is a no brainer), but as you wrote 'Do what ya gotta do for your business'.....

sorry for this protracted rant, i have two very large, complex projects coming up at the end of the month and have just 'lost' my last (fortunately not too complex) project to random clips AGAIN! (yes, i do back up - thanks to edwards excalibur - but if it wasn't for that...)
Grazie wrote on 4/25/2012, 3:10 AM
Well said Leslie.

And again, it is time to Dig In. Report and report often and report HERE you've reported. Being silent is NOT an option.


Malcolm D wrote on 4/25/2012, 7:48 AM
Your smugness and arrogance beggars belief. The tone of your recent posts is what is dragging this forum down.
If one was to believe you, Steve Mann and one or two others nothing in Vegas has ever been broken and the new builds released have been unnecessary and pointless sops to the disgruntled.
As a regular observer of this forum since version 6 there has been a disturbing loss of faith among those who were previously devoted users and a number of defections.
Amongst them are several who have contributed a great deal including Laurence.

To have you sniping at those who are struggling with software that is not working for them is unhelpful and pointless.
I myself skipped 9 and bought 10 only to be disappointed that 11 was released while 10 still had problems.

If one looks at the posts there are quite a number of people for whom Vegas Pro 11 is not delivering the goods even if it is for you.
Going by the number of builds released already I am not optimistic that 11 is going to be fully sorted before 12 is released.
Just because you have an inside track through your connection to VAAST and are likely a beta tester it is not necessary to take such extreme umbrage at criticism of Vegas.

Time to get off your high horse as I will now get off mine.

GJeffrey wrote on 4/25/2012, 1:10 PM
This is a long thread, just want to add my experience to it.
Unlike many (don't know though...), I'm a part time professional that's why my opinion can't reflect what all you guys think.
I start using Vegas version 9 (don't remember which built), after trying most of the NLE in the market. Vegas was the most responsive with my obsolete computer. No need GPU or huge CPU to play smoothly HD videos. Since then, it becomes my choice.
Going from 9 to 10 was quite difficult as vegas crashes many time with the first built. Eventually it became stable with version d &e. Trusting SCS I bought V11... since then I have a LOT of issue, when GPU is set ON (none when it's off(). I know that my GPU (a well as my computer) is under power but WHY SCS allows the GPU I use to work with Vegas. Other NLE (Adobe PP for ex.) only certified few GPU, although Vegas "should" work with almost all!, It can't work like this... too many parmaters are involved to let Vegas run properly , at least this is what I think...
Regarding the other issue some users have (event swapping, black frame...), luckily I've never had them.
Most probably it's due to my simple project (max 200clips spread over 4 tracks) and the kind of video I'm working with(Canon DSLR ).
However, reading all the posts, I understand the frustration of some users but repeating it in most of the subject becomes useless.
I only Hope that SCS is working on the major bug and try to give us a bug fee vegas V11.
In my opinion, launching a V12 without solving the main bugs of V11 would be a big mistake from SCS.
V10, V11, V12,, don't care about he version. We care about he reliabilty....
MUTTLEY wrote on 4/25/2012, 4:08 PM
"i just hope you never experience this random replacement of media"

If you dig around you'll see that I had been bitten by this, quite a bit actually, I have always been candid about the problems that I have had. This will be probably the 100th time I've said this but I feel the need to say it again, I have no issue at all with people reporting or talking about problems that they may encounter, it's in my best interest as a dedicated user for problems & bugs to be discussed. It's in that spirit that I have also shared mine. Please know that I am nothing but empathetic but that doesn't mean that those who are behaving in the manner that I was talking about before should have a free pass to bash Sony at every turn, often in completely unrelated threads. And those who claim to no longer use Vegas coming here and going on about how much better this that or the other thing is is just silly. Like calling your old girlfriend to tell her how awesome your new girlfriend is. On these forums I've seen people ask about using Vegas being told they shouldn't. I'm sorry but talking people out of buying Vegas is just ridiculous. It's simple enough to tell someone to get the trial and see if it works well on their system before buying. I'm confidant that the few more vitriolic posters have cost Sony business, that serves no one. Less money to Sony means less product development, its cutting off your nose to spite your face. And as has been stated by others there are a good number of people who are running the latest versions of Vegas without incident. I'm thankful to be one of them.

Grazzie, I totally understand what your saying, I just miss the community feel we once had. If the kind of members that have issues would keep their problems in threads that are relevant I would not be near as bothered as I have. There are just too many users currently griefing the forums and seemingly looking for any opportunity, relevant or not, to take more jabs.

usher, I hope this helps clarify where my frustration lies and even in this bit of melee your compliment meant a lot. By no means do I think that people who have a problem shouldnt be honest about it, just stop pollution the forums with the same bad attitudes about issues that are more than sufficiently known. Easy enough to say "I still have black frames" in a relevant topic without getting into all the animosity that doesnt help anyone.

Malcolm D, thanks for the laugh.

Underground Planet

P.S. While I'm making concessions I'll also add that my late night rant was made when I was not in the best state of mind to be posting, as my horrible typos bad English may have suggested. Though the sentiment had been brooding for quite some time, I'm certain I could have articulated it better. I did say what I said and will stand by my comments though I do wish I had used a bit more tact.
Dan Sherman wrote on 4/25/2012, 4:16 PM
Had more weird things happen today than ever before.
That media replacement things is a heart stopper.
Totally discouraged and disenchanted with Vegas Pro 11.
Be using since Version 3.
Spent two grand on a new computer to run this GPU accelerated version.
Anyway, add my name.
Grazie wrote on 4/25/2012, 4:17 PM
Well, Ray, it is at times like this that we can PROVE we are a great community by pulling together and pushing for a stable Vegas - for all of us.

As I keep saying - "We need to dig in!" - It's real hard.

I know that SCS are treating missing media and the like very seriously. We need to hear it from them now. They have nothing to loose - but have much to gain.

PROVE we are a great community. It's when it's tough that a community can show its true colours. Are you up for it - Ray? I know you are.

Best regards


(that'll be one "z" - lol!)

MUTTLEY wrote on 4/25/2012, 4:22 PM

lol, sorry Grazie, I like you enough that I felt you deserved an extra "z" for putting up with me =)

- Ray
Underground Planet
Grazie wrote on 4/25/2012, 4:37 PM
Raymondo! - I'll take it.

So, have I signed you up for "Diggin' In!"?


(Actually it lookzz quite snazzzy . . !)
ushere wrote on 4/25/2012, 5:50 PM
ray, i can be as hot-headed as the next man...

and i do understand your pov. i certainly don't like reading 'endless' carping, negative reports within these columns, especially after years and years of bright, cheerful and very helpful postings. nor do i appreciate those who've left coming back with tales of perfection - interestingly enough i'm eavesdropping on cs6 boards and reading problems with capturing / sync among other things, so we all know there's no perfection other than an rm440 and two vtrs - but for many of us this IS the only place to make our voices heard (my nearest pro affiliate / friend is 300km away ;-().

let's both put it down to a bad night / day, and as grazie says, let's 'dig in'.

love, peace and things late 60's (man)
farss wrote on 4/25/2012, 6:58 PM
Whilst I understand and appreciate where Muttley is coming from and I too find it very depressing reading about all the problems there's still one point being overlooked and it in some ways goes towards what Grazie has said and repeated several times.

Silence is unacceptable
Yes, but the significant player being silent is SCS.

There is a significant body of users who are more than willing to walk on hot coals and follow SCS to the ends of the earth to help fix these issues but along the way they need some morsel to raise their spirits. Nothing is more soul destroying than feeling that you have acted with the best of intentions, donated your time and money to the cause than to find out it was all for nothing. The only way to avoid that is for SCS to keep the faithful in the loop, it would take but minutes for them to dispel much if not all of the negativity that now plagues this place with something, anything really. As Gandhi once said "tell the simple truth". In the vacuum that currently exists human nature being what it is, the spin naturely tend towards negativity.

Muttley is right, this has to be hurting sales, especially as this product has been mostly sold by word of mouth. Whatever gets aired here has to be only the tip of the iceberg. I now find myself in the very unpleasant position of no longer being able to recommend the product and I'm sorry, suggesting that someone download a trial version to see if it's OK for them just doesn't cut it. I have no way of knowing that they will not strike major problem down the road and I don't want the grief (again) of having to deal with the mess. We simply don't know why some have no problems and others have nothing but grief.
The ball really is in SCS's court, I would very much love to once again be helping sell the product, I would love to as Grazie suggets make a positive contribution to getting these problems fixed but like others I have a life, I'm getting done what I needs to get done with V9.0e, I have paid for V10 and V11 and even though I rarely use V10 and V11 is quarantined I do not begrudge SCS my money but I would apprecaite some sign that it's being spent wisely to get us back to a stable product.

Grazie wrote on 4/25/2012, 7:10 PM
We now need to hear from SCS. And THAT is what I was referring to. Silence isn't an option. And we need to dig and keep reporting and reporting here.

Bob, I'm not referring to US being silent. We need to hear from SCS.

farss wrote on 4/25/2012, 7:59 PM
"We need to hear from SCS."

Thank you for clearing that up.
I got the impression from the trace of this thread that you were referring to Muttley's call for the whingers to be quiet.

Laurence wrote on 4/25/2012, 9:07 PM
It's not just us. The posts on DVInfo.net show their experiences are mirroring ours. No I haven't participated in any negative discussions there.