Comments

Vouk wrote on 11/25/2019, 7:22 AM

The frameserver uses the local harddrive / filesystem to exchange its frame data, voukoder uses the RAM. The frameserver requests RGB data from VEGAS and then converts it back to YUV. Voukoder directly requests YUV420 frames (more pixel formats to come).

Voukoders goal was never to be faster, but to provide more and better encoders (and a better integration).

More about Voukoders performance: https://www.voukoder.org/forum/thread/352-voukoder-performance-analysis/

adis-a3097 wrote on 11/25/2019, 1:15 PM

The frameserver uses the local harddrive / filesystem to exchange its frame data, voukoder uses the RAM. The frameserver requests RGB data from VEGAS and then converts it back to YUV. Voukoder directly requests YUV420 frames (more pixel formats to come).

Voukoders goal was never to be faster, but to provide more and better encoders (and a better integration).

More about Voukoders performance: https://www.voukoder.org/forum/thread/352-voukoder-performance-analysis/

Is there any chance of adding tiff export to the export options? And, if yes, please don't make it as incompatible to every other application as Vegas does when not in 8 bit mode. Please.

Thanks! :)

fifonik wrote on 11/25/2019, 3:58 PM

@Vouk Thanks. To be honest, I have not expected major speed improvements while comparing the same encoder (x264) with the similar options in different wrappers. My only hope was that voukoder uses newer version of x264 encoder with better optimisations for modern CPU or data exchange routines improved in the workflow (as you already explained). So, I just checked that everything as it should be.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 5700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4@3200, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), Samsung 870 Evo, HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19

Greg-Kintz wrote on 11/25/2019, 5:02 PM

Is there any chance of adding tiff export to the export options? And, if yes, please don't make it as incompatible to every other application as Vegas does when not in 8 bit mode. Please.

+1 on this!

Former user wrote on 11/25/2019, 5:58 PM

Seems about 20% faster when encoding in nvenc

fifonik wrote on 11/25/2019, 6:21 PM

Just curious, what is the purpose to have tiff output?

I have used image sequences only when working with film scans. Found it is way slower than utvideo/magicyuv (multi-files search/open overhead, file headers overhead, colour conversions). I understand that sometimes this can only be the only option to supply "video" in other systems that cannot work with lossless avi.

So, my question actually is: where are you trying to send the video to?

 

@Former user The same options? Have you checked output bitrates/quality? I noticed that I tred to use VCE with CRF=18 vs CPU with CRF=18 I got much higher bitrate in output file in the first case. Anyway, the speed will depend on used GPU.

Last changed by fifonik on 11/25/2019, 6:24 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 5700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4@3200, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), Samsung 870 Evo, HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19

Former user wrote on 11/25/2019, 7:28 PM

@fifonik The Nvenc encoder is constantly stopping and starting with vegas, but with Voukoder it is getting a more constant stream of data. They created similar sized files. Voukoder is on left, and Vegas (Nvenc) on the right

john_dennis wrote on 11/25/2019, 8:52 PM

@fifonik

"I tried to use VCE with CRF=18 vs CPU with CRF=18 I got much higher bit rate in output file in the first case. Anyway, the speed will depend on used GPU."

AMD VCE doesn't encode B-frames. Much of the bit rate difference to "CPU only" is likely because of that at the same CRF.

Former user wrote on 11/25/2019, 9:54 PM

@Former user The same options? Have you checked output bitrates/quality? I noticed that I tred to use VCE with CRF=18 vs CPU with CRF=18 I got much higher bitrate in output file in the first case. Anyway, the speed will depend on used GPU.

Actually You're right. At CRF=23, X264 file is less than 1/2 the size of nvenc file

Greg-Kintz wrote on 11/25/2019, 10:38 PM

Just curious, what is the purpose to have tiff output?

I have used image sequences only when working with film scans. Found it is way slower than utvideo/magicyuv (multi-files search/open overhead, file headers overhead, colour conversions). I understand that sometimes this can only be the only option to supply "video" in other systems that cannot work with lossless avi.

, my question actually is: where are you trying to send the video to?

 

You answered part of this already in that some professional workflow environments demand lossless workflows that can be sent anywhere in the world without issue. TIFF is an established lossless image format that is lossless, 4:4:4, and can work in a variety of resolutions. In more demanding workflows, up to 16 bit TIFF is sometimes used (which is part of the original inquiry on TIFF past 8 bits).

The other plus with image sequence is not so much where your sending video to, but more of when. Five years or fifty years from now, if an editor can read a simple TIFF image and image sequence, you're set. No video codecs to mess with and nothing outright proprietary. Partial hard drive hit? With image sequence, unlike an mov or AVI, the whole project isn't lost. A few years ago I worked on someone else's TAGRA image sequence formatted feature that was saved over 15 years ago. Catch was the drive now had corruption. Thanks to image sequencing I only lost about 2 minutes and was able to get a patch for that.

 

fifonik wrote on 11/26/2019, 12:33 AM
AMD VCE doesn't encode B-frames.

OMG. I did not know this. This explains everything...

I encoded in Handbrake with x264 CRF23 vs AMD VCE CRF23 Quality and the second file is 4+ times bigger! And yes, I checked that there are no B-frames there.

Looks like I've done with VCE for another few years :)

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 5700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4@3200, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), Samsung 870 Evo, HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19

Vouk wrote on 11/26/2019, 12:52 AM

Is there any chance of adding tiff export to the export options? And, if yes, please don't make it as incompatible to every other application as Vegas does when not in 8 bit mode. Please.

@adis-a3097 Several people have asked for this already, I'll put it on the list for 2.4. But it makes only sense if i get the uncompressed frame from VEGAS. Currently it's 8bit I420 only.

 

adis-a3097 wrote on 11/26/2019, 2:28 AM

Just curious, what is the purpose to have tiff output?

I have used image sequences only when working with film scans. Found it is way slower than utvideo/magicyuv (multi-files search/open overhead, file headers overhead, colour conversions). I understand that sometimes this can only be the only option to supply "video" in other systems that cannot work with lossless avi.

So, my question actually is: where are you trying to send the video to?

 

@Former user The same options? Have you checked output bitrates/quality? I noticed that I tred to use VCE with CRF=18 vs CPU with CRF=18 I got much higher bitrate in output file in the first case. Anyway, the speed will depend on used GPU.

To DCP Mastering app. :)

adis-a3097 wrote on 11/26/2019, 2:31 AM

Is there any chance of adding tiff export to the export options? And, if yes, please don't make it as incompatible to every other application as Vegas does when not in 8 bit mode. Please.

@adis-a3097 Several people have asked for this already, I'll put it on the list for 2.4. But it makes only sense if i get the uncompressed frame from VEGAS. Currently it's 8bit I420 only.

 

That's a pity. But thanks, anyways! :)

wwaag wrote on 11/26/2019, 11:07 AM

@adis-a3097

If you're interested, the next build of HOS will support the export of 16bit tiff images. To get around the limitation of the 8bit frame from Vegas (also a problem using the DebugMode FrameServer), HOS first renders to an intermediate (your choice) such as ProRes QT which I believe is 10bit 444 and then creates the image sequence from the intermediate. It's not an ideal solution, but it would work in the interim until either Magix adds such a rendering option or Vouk is able to get high-bit uncompressed frames from Vegas.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia RTX4070 graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

adis-a3097 wrote on 11/26/2019, 11:45 AM

@adis-a3097

If you're interested, the next build of HOS will support the export of 16bit tiff images. To get around the limitation of the 8bit frame from Vegas (also a problem using the DebugMode FrameServer), HOS first renders to an intermediate (your choice) such as ProRes QT which I believe is 10bit 444 and then creates the image sequence from the intermediate. It's not an ideal solution, but it would work in the interim until either Magix adds such a rendering option or Vouk is able to get high-bit uncompressed frames from Vegas.

Hm, that's exactly how I did it before. I mean I used to render to an high quality intermediate (ProRes), then rerender to hi-bit tiff sequence in the "other" NLE. Which is ...meh. Then the Voukoder came out and I was so happy to be able to render to FFV1, which gives 16 bit 444 (don't know if it's "true" 16 bit or only 16 bit wraper with 8 or 10 bit worth of data inside) hoping to get a bit better final quality, but the "other" NLE wouldn't accept .mkv files. Dang! 😂

Not saying "no" to you, wwag, (never say never) but for the time being I guess I'll go with myFFmpeg. Thanks. :)

Vouk wrote on 11/26/2019, 11:52 AM

Once I get float data out of VEGAS I can give you any color depth you'll ever need. ;)

Marco. wrote on 11/26/2019, 12:03 PM

Rendering TIFF image sequences out of a Vegas Pro 17 floating point video level project works fine for me. The exported TIFFs are 16 bit and luma and color will be preserved (when re-using the TIFF in another floating point video level project).

wwaag wrote on 11/26/2019, 12:12 PM

Works here too. Problem solved it would seem.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia RTX4070 graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Marco. wrote on 11/26/2019, 1:13 PM

I see in other apps and in VP 8 bit projects such 16 bit TIFF file are affected somehow in the curve which is not the gamma. Investigating ...

adis-a3097 wrote on 11/26/2019, 3:40 PM

I see in other apps and in VP 8 bit projects such 16 bit TIFF file are affected somehow in the curve which is not the gamma. Investigating ...

Yesss...now you've got it!

monoparadox wrote on 11/26/2019, 9:27 PM

Well, I had Voukoder running and tried updating to the newest installer. Now it doesn't show in my render options. Stupid move. I'm running Vegas 17. Any ideas on how to rectify this? Thanks.

-- tom

lan-mLMC wrote on 11/26/2019, 9:42 PM

Well, I had Voukoder running and tried updating to the newest installer. Now it doesn't show in my render options. Stupid move. I'm running Vegas 17. Any ideas on how to rectify this? Thanks.

-- tom

Be sure that you have the two files:

C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 17.0\Voukoder-x64.fio2007-config

C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 17.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\voukoderplug\voukoderplug.dll

The two files transpoart frame from VGEAS Pro 17 to Voukoder.

supergafudo wrote on 12/2/2019, 2:35 AM

The other plus with image sequence is not so much where your sending video to, but more of when. Five years or fifty years from now, if an editor can read a simple TIFF image and image sequence, you're set. No video codecs to mess with and nothing outright proprietary. Partial hard drive hit? With image sequence, unlike an mov or AVI, the whole project isn't lost. A few years ago I worked on someone else's TAGRA image sequence formatted feature that was saved over 15 years ago. Catch was the drive now had corruption. Thanks to image sequencing I only lost about 2 minutes and was able to get a patch for that.

 

I also think that with new SSDs and fast RAM, image sequences should be the next open format to work with, instead of this complicated codecs. Also the renders and effects would be extremely fast.