MP4 vs ProRes?

Gid wrote on 5/7/2023, 3:33 AM

Hi, I just did a quick render out to ProRes HQ of an MP4 file, the MP4 UHD 30p Constant was also created by Vegas ,

When I dragged the MP4 & the ProRes back onto the timeline the MP4 was stuttery but the ProRes was smooth as silk, yes in my vid it is on Good (Full), normally I would just reduce that to Good (Half) etc, but for this the difference in playback & scrubbing was night & day,

The Boris people seem to prefer ProRes & ProRes is quite often hyped generally. & I've read a fair bit, MP4 is ok as a consumer format but... etc... ?

Massive file size but I might have to play with this some more, If anyone wants to share their thoughts they'd be welcome 👍

Last changed by Gid

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Comments

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/7/2023, 4:16 AM

As a basic knowledge, AVC/HEVC-mp4 comes to consumer, same the most consumer-camera; principle is that you shoot and watch.
Nothing concerning to NLE.

ProRes is intermediate, that is to say, everything before delivery.
It requires very large bandwidth and usually not ready for watching, thus, only a few profi-cameras capable using it.
It's like cement in post editing, you only need some water and can form what you want.

The "hard" AVC/HEVC-mp4 is cobble, coming onto timeline it must be firstly powdered (decoded), then previewed; every drop of water on the timeline leads anew the powdering procedure.

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/7/2023, 10:09 AM

Or to put it another way, ProRes compresses each frame individually while other containers like mp4, mov, and mxf allow individual-frame compression or in groups. Compression in groups is harder top deal with for an nle because viewing a single frame depends on all the frames in the group that precede it. If your camera or render preset has the option, choosing Intra for mp4 will yield footage that's larger in size, requires faster media, but is easier to edit. ProRes is always Intra.

Magix render presets don't seem to have an Intra option. Igpus decode moderate sized groups (gops less than 60 or so) pretty well but most Ryzen cpus don't have one. Magix presets look like they use a gop size of 30. XDCAM is a little better, with N=15. Voukoder, however, has advanced settings:

This preset defaults to 250-frame gops. But if you set them both to 1, the rendered mp4 will be even more edit-friendly than ProRes, assuming you leave the pixel format set to 4:2:0. ProRes only has 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 options.

Gid wrote on 5/9/2023, 1:51 PM

@Yelandkeil @Howard-Vigorita Thanks both of you, I did set them both to 1 but the clip wouldn't play, user error no doubt as I haven't had a lot of time to play with this, 👍

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J-Toresen wrote on 5/9/2023, 2:45 PM

@Gid What do you mean with "I did set them both to 1"?

Jøran Toresen

Gid wrote on 5/9/2023, 2:51 PM

 

Magix render presets don't seem to have an Intra option. Igpus decode moderate sized groups (gops less than 60 or so) pretty well but most Ryzen cpus don't have one. Magix presets look like they use a gop size of 30. XDCAM is a little better, with N=15. Voukoder, however, has advanced settings:

This preset defaults to 250-frame gops. But if you set them both to 1, the rendered mp4 will be even more edit-friendly than ProRes, assuming you leave the pixel format set to 4:2:0. ProRes only has 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 options.

@J-Toresen I was ref to Howard's comment that I've underlined above .

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Former user wrote on 5/9/2023, 6:04 PM

Hi, I just did a quick render out to ProRes HQ of an MP4 file, the MP4 UHD 30p Constant was also created by Vegas ,

When I dragged the MP4 & the ProRes back onto the timeline the MP4 was stuttery but the ProRes was smooth as silk, yes in my vid it is on Good (Full), normally I would just reduce that to Good (Half) etc, but for this the difference in playback & scrubbing was night & day,

@Gid I've brought this up before with many Vegas versions and compared playback with other NLE's showing how poor Vegas GPU decoding works. Recently I showed difference between GPU decode on and off in the main 402/403 thread.

Like so many other things with Vegas, it's a Vegas problem that needs fixing, and just like their hardware encoding being 3rd rate leading people to believe hardware encoding in general is always low quality, it is same with playback of MP4, it should not be that bad and isn't that bad in other NLE's, but ofcourse playback is always going to be smoother with prores in any NLE, but MP4 playback in Vegas with GPU decoder on should not be like this.

Seeking the timeline

Gid wrote on 5/10/2023, 12:24 AM

@Former user Yep I've been looking at all posts, esp those reg GPU's as I've got a 3090 & shouldn't really have any problem with playback of just a simple constant UHD clip, that's why i created this post, the smoothness I see with the ProRes is what I'd like to see from the MP4, I use other software like Magix Movie Studio & that has no problem playing these MP4s, scrubbing through them or playing smoothly a simple crossfade, add a simple crossfade to two UHD MP4 clips in Vegas & playback can drop to the teens or even single digits, Strangely not always the case tho, (all clips converted to constant).

Add 4 UHD clips with PiP putting the clips in the four corners. playback pretty much comes to a halt, but taking the time to convert to ProRes this PiP plays fluently again. I do like Vegas I just wish it would perform as well with any/either media,

Were you @Todd-B ?

Last changed by Gid on 5/10/2023, 12:30 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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lan-mLMC wrote on 5/10/2023, 1:14 AM

I do like Vegas I just wish it would perform as well with any/either media,

@Gid This is something the Vegsa Team has always wanted to do, which is to make significant improvements to the video engine. But in order to attract more users to upgrade so as to maintain a steady revenue stream, the Vegas Team had to focus on adding new features.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 1:16 AM

Have you guys ever read the base literature, like here the Color Correction Handbook?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Correction-Handbook-Professional-Techniques/dp/0321929667

Then you would know, that mp4 formats have seen for a long time as critical for editing, while ProRes was seen as acceptable footage also for high-quality production, but of course RAW has always been seen as the best choice from the perspective of the colorist.

While I tend to say that both H.264 and h.265 delivers a really great quality today, especially if you shoot 10bit or even better, it was said here in a still valid way that long-GOP footage has significant higher requirements for decoding during playback. It has become better, especially if you have your i-GPU in your system (what has become more important for some type of footage then the GPU). So I do not think that it can be stated in a general way, that Vegas has a problem with the playback of mp4. That is not true at all.

But if you use mp4, then please do not use footage with a GOP length of 250. Such a footage has been never designed for editing, but is a render footage by the Voucoder, designed for playback on TVs mainly.

While I agree that playback behaviour using fx coud be improved for sure, I see no sense why such a Voucoder footage is compared with ProRes - what is an all-I high quality format, captured by cameras or external recorders, designed for editing.

It is the responsibility of you to choose a format that is appropriate for editing. If you ignore all what we know today - for example to switch to a GOP length of 1 if you render a footage for an intermediate purpose, then it will be only you who will suffer during editing.

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Gid wrote on 5/10/2023, 1:46 AM

@lan-mLMC Hi, yep I get that 👍 this is isn't a a post complaint, it's more a query is to why & how, I've very little experience with ProRes so the more info the better, 👍

While I agree that playback behaviour using fx coud be improved for sure, I see no sense why such a Voucoder footage is compared with ProRes - what is an all-I high quality format, captured by cameras or external recorders, designed for editing.

It is the responsibility of you to choose a format that is appropriate for editing. If you ignore all what we know today - for example to switch to a GOP length of 1 if you render a footage for an intermediate purpose, then it will be only you who will suffer during editing.

@Wolfgang S. Thankyou for sharing although I'm going to have to decipher what you wrote as quite a bit of it doesn't mean a lot to me, as I say I've very little experience with ProRes & things like i-frames & long GOP are things I'll need to learn to understand, this is a post that is a request for information, I thought my orig post made it clear I'm a novice reg these matters, so your final comments are are not helpful or necessary, they are dismissive. No offence meant but those comments are like a teacher expecting you to know it before you've been taught..

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 1:50 AM

It is up to you if you are willing to learn. No insult meant, but these comments are like an ignorant child who complains unjustifiably because he doesn't know the basics, and is not willing to learn the basics.

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 5/10/2023, 1:55 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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RogerS wrote on 5/10/2023, 1:51 AM

Just quickly look up video compression as it will explain how compression works and the role of iframes and picture groups (GOP) that only include data that changed from the previous frame.

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Gid wrote on 5/10/2023, 2:03 AM

@Wolfgang S. This isn't a post of complaint, the first two @Howard-Vigorita & @Yelandkeil understood & chose to educate me about ProRes & why it plays back better, but you as a moderator should know better, you came in with a comment that comes across as patronising to someone like me who is only trying to learn, you basically said this post is pointless, I still have to decipher your comment as to why exactly you think so, even your reply above 'these comments are like a child' is unnecessary & a little personal, If I'd wrote that I'd get a warning..

PS, Basics? 'doesn't know the basics, and is not willing to learn the basics' How many people, what percentage of people who use editing software know about i-frames, GOP, or the difference between 8bit & 10bit,?

I wrote in my first post that I'd read a fair bit, I have been trying to learn, I know the basics of GOP, I-frames b-frames, I sort of know how they work, but didn't/don't know how they're different in MP4 - ProRes.. or anything like 'long-GOP footage' ? whatever that is. We all have to start somewhere.

Last changed by Gid on 5/10/2023, 2:23 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 2:31 AM

The point is that you are complaining about a limited playback performance, but you do not see that your have caused that by yourself. Simply, because you do not know the basics. Ok, everyone has started learning at some point. Different people here has told you that you run into a significant issue because of your approach (e.g. to use a GOP = 250 and then complain that the playback capabilities are too low, was pointed out a very questionable approach by Howard). It is up to you to ignore that, or to reflect why these people told you what they told you.

And be aware that you started the insults with "no offence meant but..." - what is a nice underhand for sure. I have only answered in the same style.

And for sure, you are working with a professional software designed for professional cameras also with 10bit or even more, designed for log footage, designed for HDR and so on. People who use such a software may be interested in the deeper understanding what is going on. We have now more and more cameras that has become affordable for 10bit or even raw, so that is an increasing number of users that are going into this direction.

Up to you what you think about all the hints, that was given to you.

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Gid wrote on 5/10/2023, 2:53 AM

@Wolfgang S. I apologise I really did mean no offence,  This isn't a post of complaint, how many times do I have to write that! I was hoping to learn about why ProRes performs as it does, & yes i didn't see that I'd caused it myself but I was being shown & the conversation would've maybe gone further, I'm going to leave it now tho because you've killed it for me, thankyou to everyone else who did share their knowledge.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 3:12 AM

You killed it by yourself. No one can kill it for you (beside the possibility to close a discussion, but that was not done here).

Happy life.

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walter-i. wrote on 5/10/2023, 3:16 AM
But if you use mp4, then please do not use footage with a GOP length of 250. Such a footage has been never designed for editing, but is a render footage by the Voucoder, designed for playback on TVs mainly.

 

@GidPlease try to read the main point of @Wolfgang S. statement - he wants to help just like the others.
Putting every word on the gold scale does us no good, it rather hinders us.

Former user wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:03 AM

It is up to you if you are willing to learn. No insult meant, but these comments are like an ignorant child who complains unjustifiably because he doesn't know the basics, and is not willing to learn the basics.

@Wolfgang S. You're in luck, because the sample playback I show above is very similar to GID's. It is auto GOP 250, here's a sample capture.

Here's seeking in Resolve Vs Vegas

So once again you're making excuses for Vegas's poor performance and buggy GPU decoder trying to convince people that's just how MP4's in every NLE

There's nothing special about Resolve in this simple 4K60AVC 8bit playback example. Resolve is playing back at 4K in highest quality with 32bit processing while Vegas is playing back Best 540P resolution with 8bit processing and yet it's playback is much worse then Resolve.

How do you explain that Wolfgang, do you think you're being dishonest?

 

 

 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:13 AM

Dear friend, do you think that you are dishonest?

I've brought this up before with many Vegas versions and compared playback with other NLE's showing how poor Vegas GPU decoding works. 

So once again you're making excuses for Vegas's poor performance and buggy GPU decoder trying to convince people that's just how MP4's in every NLE

and earlier

Use Resolve for color grading, not editing. There's all these 'influencers' talking about how they changed to Resolve.... I haven't worked out what that's about yet, either stealth marketing Resolve or trying to renew or force a new contract with Adobe/Apple after negotiations failed right before publicly declaring their love of Resolve for editing and changing NLE's.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/de/forum/vegas-32-full-range-mode-does-not-correctly-decode-sony-slog3--140150/?page=2#ca874861

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 5/10/2023, 5:29 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Former user wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:36 AM

@Wolfgang S. You're speaking down to customers because they expect or hope for better performance, you're telling them they are ignorant and uneducated to have such a belief with the AUTO 250 GOP AVC that they are having problems with playback. I show it's entirely possible in another editor, infact I tried 2 other editors as well, none had the problem we see here with Vegas.

I've asked you before to download a free NLE to compare, Capcut and Resolve are 2, and before you speak in absolute terms about what is possible or what should be expected try the same thing on a different NLE. Educate yourself about what's possible with a modern NLE

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:51 AM

A0,

I know what is possible with Resolve (but the Studio version, not with the free version). Educate yourself about the difference between delivery formats and acquisition formats.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Former user wrote on 5/10/2023, 6:02 AM

@Wolfgang S. You've sort of dug yourself into a corner here. In the first video I posted I show Vegas doing a proficient job at seeking with GPU decoder OFF. With GPU decoder on Vegas stutters and lags. I then go on to show with the same GPU decoder it works fine on another NLE, so how on earth have you not deduced there's a problem with the Vegas GPU decoder (the software plugin, not the hardware that's works just fine)

And if it's bugged, we can expect better when it's fixed. Does that make sense to you? I sure hope so.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/10/2023, 6:19 AM

You have started to ask me if I am dishonest. No, I am not. And sorry, if someone asks such a personally offensive question, then I am not into a corner but you are.

To show a video, that has come out of an Voucoder encoding process, and to compare that with an acquisition format like ProRes - sorry, but that still makes not really sense.

If you think that you have identified a bug based on the GPU decoding, please feel free to create a support ticket.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Former user wrote on 5/10/2023, 7:11 AM

To show a video, that has come out of an Voucoder encoding process, and to compare that with an acquisition format like ProRes - sorry, but that still makes not really sense.

@Wolfgang S. Auto GOP 250 is a default for X264 so Vegas's GPU decoder should be able to handle it as it will experience it for a lot for transcodes. I don't use handbrake but I believe it's production template encode may produces an I frame every 12 frames which is perfect for Vegas, and that's what you're explaining, but in the process you're denigrating a user for using a default which should playback well enough even if not with the same smoothness, and it does with the GPU decoder off but not turned on.

Sure if you're producing an intermediate especially for Vegas then you should use a smaller GOP, and I don't think anyone disagreed with you