VP20 jerks while VP17 not

Sirio wrote on 6/19/2023, 1:36 PM

Help. Since the Vegas Pro 20 I have serious jerks problem in the preview.

It is impossible to work in this way. On the same computer, my old VP17 work fine, then why not the VP20?
Here you can watch a video where I filmed my monitor: same file, same computer, same settings, CPU, graphic card, HDD etc... And not FX, just read a file on the timeline. This problem happens too on the trimmer window.

Here the original files:
The result: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uaoz6dba65gag5l/Test%20preview%20VP17%20vs%20VP20-compaire.mp4?dl=0
Both files:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7d67gouvodqott3/CSD2023-quinte-G1-062.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/otriirjjibixlkg/CSD2023-quinte-G2-132.MOV?dl=0
The project: https://www.dropbox.com/s/etzf5zlgt7ok52p/Test%20preview%20VP17%20vs%20VP20.veg?dl=0

This is my hardware setup:
Vegas Pro 20 b411
Windows 10
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5820K CPU @ 3.30GHz
Memory: 32.635,2 MB
Graphic card: ASUS R9-290X

Comments

Former user wrote on 6/19/2023, 2:38 PM

@Sirio Hi, both those files are screen grabs as in your movie, they're no good to work with, you need to share the orig file that is on the timeline, this one

or there's an App called MediaInfo, download it, it's free & a fast download with no added adverts or any of that rubbish. https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

After downloading, right click on the media file in your Windows folder (CSD2023-.......), open MediaInfo, choose Text from the options at the top, Copy & paste the information in a new comment on here 👍

PS. your PC is old so maybe that's why the older VP17 works better

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 2:01 AM

Hi,
No, it is not a screen grab, I filmed it with an external camera.
If you read completely the message, you will see that there is the links to download the all files on Dropbox, including the project (.veg).

There is no reason why on a old computer VP17 run better than VP20. There are not so different.

As required here the Mediainfo result:

General
Complete name : D:\Travaux_en cours\Saggio CSD 2023\Dietro_le_quinte\Test preview VP17 vs VP20\SSIR8708.MOV
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt 0000.00 (qt )
File size : 290 MiB
Duration : 23 s 0 ms
Overall bit rate : 106 Mb/s
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Movie_More : FUJIFILM DIGITAL CAMERA X-H1
Encoded date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Tagged date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Origin : Digital Camera

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings : 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, Reference frames : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=25
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 23 s 0 ms
Bit rate : 102 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.980
Stream size : 278 MiB (96%)
Language : English
Encoded date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Tagged date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Color range : Full
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.601
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : lpcm
Duration : 23 s 0 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Stream size : 6.32 MiB (2%)
Language : English
Encoded date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Tagged date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC

Other
ID : 3
Type : Time code
Format : QuickTime TC
Duration : 23 s 0 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Time code of first frame : 20:02:52:00
Time code of last frame : 20:03:14:49
Time code, stripped : No
Language : English
Encoded date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC
Tagged date : 2023-06-19 20:13:37 UTC

Former user wrote on 6/20/2023, 5:16 AM

@Sirio I did read it completely, It's quite clear you filmed with an external camera, you're splitting hairs there,

The first link is 'Compaire', that's just showing the two screens filmed with an external camera, the same as the video you posted,

The two links SSIR8708 & SSIR8709 are just those two clips that were filmed with the external camera,

& the last link is for a .veg, but is useless without that files that go in that .veg project.

------------

VP17 & VP20 are different, they get updated every few months over the last 4yrs 🤔

Have you got Quicktime installed & turned on in Preferences - Depreciated features,?

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 5:48 AM

I am sorry, you are right, I confused uploading the files. Now I just modified the first message with the good one files.

4yrs is not a reason, because it is just reading. VLC, MPC player, DaVinci Resolve and even an elementary editing software such CapCut are able to play in real time the files on the timeline.

Yes, I have Quicktime installed.
Vegas Pro 20 settings:

I have already tried to reduce RAM preview, it change nothing.

EricLNZ wrote on 6/20/2023, 6:34 AM

Try ticking, in Deprecated Features, "Allow Legacy GPU rendering" ?

Former user wrote on 6/20/2023, 6:37 AM

@Sirio Not sure what the problem is, Vegas20 loves your camera files(on my computer) as much as your VP17 loves them. Gop50, no B frames, Scrubs super easy, plays at 4x. Also when I move the play head rapidly at the end Vegas responds almost immediately.

Difficult to say if it's a problem with your VP20, a system setting or VP20 requires more modern hardware, OR it's efficiency is worse then VP17 due to all the added layers and features since VP17. Capcut efficiency is very high, and it's much more modern software

RogerS wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:05 AM

Hi Sirio, I loaded your project into VP 20.411 with my laptop from 2017 with HD 630 iGPU and GTX 1050 GPU. It plays back at a full 25fps- no stuttering or issues.

My dynamic ram preview is at 5% of the 32GB I have . On file io, legacy AVC and HEVC are disabled.

One difference between 17 and 20 is that 18+ require 6th generation or greater Intel CPUs to use the integrated GPU. That can really help with decoding files. VP 18+ also wants "AMD Radeon with 4GB and VCE 3.0 or higher"- yours appears to be VCE 2.0.
Without the iGPU working it may be using your AMD card for decoding- does it appear in preferences/ file io under decoding? If nothing appears it's all on your aging CPU to do. What does your task manager/performance look like compared to mine?

If your AMD drivers are up to date the only other thing I can suggest is trying a reset of 20 in case there are old settings causing issues.

If that doesn't work... consider a newer GPU than your card from 2013; a newer AMD card should work better. Or try to keep your computer age within 6 years of VEGAS as beyond that VEGAS starts to drop support for key components of it. If I were you I'd stick with 17 and move to 20 when you have a modern machine.

(Quicktime does nothing for this type of file so doesn't matter if it's enabled.
Legacy rendering also won't help as it's for encoding "Selecting this option will allow access to GPU rendering options for Main Concept AVC/AAC and Sony AVC/MVC renderers.")

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:15 AM

Try ticking, in Deprecated Features, "Allow Legacy GPU rendering" ?

I tried, it change nothing, it is only for rendering.

j-v wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:42 AM

Tried also that project on my laptop from signature with VPro 20.
No problem to play the files fluent with all Vegas settings on default, look

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:45 AM

@RogerS
I tested: file io, legacy AVC and HEVC in disabled, it change nothing.
Here my prefenrece -> file IO and GPU usage while reading.

Now I will try the reset.

For now I can consider to buy a new graphic card, but the rest of my computer is very powerful, the it is frustrating to change computer just because VP20 is no more able to manage "old" GPU. I sincerely hope in a upgrade in VP20 to re-introduce some part of the VP17 engine. Especially because all other editing softwares work perfectly.

RogerS wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:57 AM

File io does change something- GPU decoding activity should disappear when legacy AVC is checked and the load goes onto your CPU.

Your computer isn't powerful in 2023- it's old. It's fine for photo editing or less demanding software but video editing is much harder on computer hardware. VEGAS had to drop support for old GPUs as they didn't support the features it relies on after VP 17.

I didn't realize what a difference it would make but going from my 7th generation Intel laptop to 13th generation desktop has been stunning. Render times are cut drastically (see the benchmarks in my signature- and consider trying these benchmarks to compare your hardware with) and I can preview most footage without proxy files. Many Fx now playback in real time that hardly worked before.

And that's with 7th generation- two years newer than your system with a GPU and iGPU that are fully supported in VEGAS.

john_dennis wrote on 6/20/2023, 8:15 AM

My results:

I change my computer by the calendar. You can never be ahead of the curve, always behind.

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 8:52 AM

Reset don't change nothing, and the settings of @john_dennis neither 😓

andyrpsmith wrote on 6/20/2023, 9:10 AM

Just to add my experience playing this project on both V17 and V20. My system is 3rd Gen i5 @ 4Ghz and 1080Ti. Both V17 and V20 play perfectly with GPU decoding. Also plays perfectly with GPU off on both V17 and V20.

Former user wrote on 6/20/2023, 10:39 AM

@Sirio Hi, sorry I've been out working, thanks for sharing the files 👍, I've got quite a different PC to you & some of the others as in my CPU is AMD but just for the record, as everyone has wrote those files play very smoothly on my PC, 50fps playback is instant.

Sirio wrote on 6/20/2023, 12:01 PM

It happen a strange thing:
I noticed that my AMD driver isn't up to date, then i downloaded the last one to this page:
https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-r9-series/amd-radeon-r9-200-series/amd-radeon-r9-290x

I downloaded the Radeon™ Pro Software for Enterprise, which is made for video production.
During the installation, the new driver begin to uninstall the old one. Once done, by curiosity I started VP20 to test the preview, and miracle, without drivers The preview play very smoothly.

Then I follow to install the new drivers, and... the problem come back !

I think I will try to stay without AMD drivers. May be it is the solution.
In Preferences -> Video, VP20 don't see no more graphic card.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 6/20/2023, 1:34 PM

@Sirio I was going to suggest you try that driver but you beat me to it. Instead of running with the default Microsoft display adapter, which is what you are probably doing by not installing the amd driver, you might try reinstalling it and seeing if you can disable only those functions that might be causing the playback problem. There's Display Optimization in preferences as well as scaling and a few other things when you right-click on the preview window. With vp21 there are also a number of check-boxes in i/o preferences. Decoding might be what's not working if you lack an Intel igpu and Vegas defaults to trying to use the old amd which might not be able to do that; maybe compare the decoding settings with vp17 and see if they are the same. Ideally you want to take advantage of whatever amd gpu acceleration you can get. Like vce rendering which probably also disappears without the driver. And perhaps acceleration for some fx. As I recall that driver also has the amd screen capture function called ReLive which works pretty well.

Sirio wrote on 6/21/2023, 2:21 AM

OK, guys, I found the solution ! With you help, obviously. 😄
The problem comes back because Windows has installed its default driver for my Radeon.

It was the only setting that I don't have touched.
Harware Decoder to use, must be on Off.

My conclusion: VP20 doesn't have any problems with my AMD Radeon R9 290X hardware, but the problem is with its driver. As well as the AMD than the default windows one. Or, more precisely the AMD UVD (Unified Video Decoder).

Then, I suggest to the developers to check the VP20 code, because it seems more as a bug with the AMD UVD than an incompatibility.

Here the FileI/O settngs of my VP17:

fr0sty wrote on 6/21/2023, 2:43 AM

That's because the QSV decoder built into your Intel chip is more powerful than your rather old GPU, and it can decode the video better. It's recommended to use QSV for decode even with newer GPUs, though, it just works better.

RogerS wrote on 6/21/2023, 3:15 AM

VP 20 requires VCE 3.0 while your card is only 2.0. Turning off your GPU and having the CPU do decoding solves it, which to me says it is time to get a new GPU? As you know, 5th generation Intel iGPUs aren't supported in VEGAS post VP 18 as they lack required features so your hardware is best suited for VP 17 and earlier.

If all you need is decoding the cheapest Intel ARC card might be a good idea for you. Really though I'd start saving up for a modern computer to go with your modern software.

EricLNZ wrote on 6/21/2023, 5:10 AM

Try ticking, in Deprecated Features, "Allow Legacy GPU rendering" ?

I tried, it change nothing, it is only for rendering.

Yes for rendering only. It was late when I posted and I realised my error after I'd switched off my PC. Anyway you've found a solution and it may help other users who encounter the same situation.

Sirio wrote on 6/21/2023, 9:21 AM

VP 20 requires VCE 3.0 while your card is only 2.0. .... so your hardware is best suited for VP 17 and earlier.

What you say is a part right, but not completely, because if I set VP17 -> Preferences-> File I/O -> Decode hardware: on AMD UVD, Vegas 17 has the same problem in preview than VP20. Isn't interesting?

I think my next Graphic card will be a Nvidia.

RogerS wrote on 6/21/2023, 9:35 AM

I see, so the AMD decoding never worked in VEGAS and you didn't notice because with 17 Intel did the decoding. Makes sense.

NVIDIA and AMD both make fine cards. Hope you get a good deal on one.

andyrpsmith wrote on 6/21/2023, 10:19 AM

VP 20 requires VCE 3.0 while your card is only 2.0. .... so your hardware is best suited for VP 17 and earlier.

What you say is a part right, but not completely, because if I set VP17 -> Preferences-> File I/O -> Decode hardware: on AMD UVD, Vegas 17 has the same problem in preview than VP20. Isn't interesting?

I think my next Graphic card will be a Nvidia.

But if I do the same select AMD UVD Vegas 17 runs perfectly well no stuttering and I have an i5 CPU.