Wide Gamut Monitor Workarounds

ALO schrieb am 05.06.2021 um 18:21 Uhr

(This would be for those of you who edit on laptops w/o a secondary monitor)

I had thought the solution to working with today's wide-gamut displays was to profile the screen (ie SpyderX, Xrite) targeting R709 and then you're done, but apparently this doesn't work at all -- as far as I'm aware, you cannot correctly emulate/clamp to sRGB or 709 via icm files (which reinforces my sense that color management in windows is basically hopeless).

The goal is to correct the mismatch between what Windows/Vegas expect (an sRGB display) and how your wide-gamut monitor displays sRGB colors (wildly over-saturated).

So I've been pondering workarounds.

1) You could get a secondary (broadcast) monitor. Not a solution, if you want the portability of editing on a laptop, but worth mentioning as it is a simple and effective solution to an otherwise intractable set of problems.

2) Create and apply a LUT to Vegas's output fx to convert your preview to sRGB and/or R709 and then trust that your preview is correct.

DisplayCAL should be able to do this, except profiling wide-gamut displays with colorimeters is tricky, and DisplayCAL itself is complicated. This is probably a good solution if you're able to get it work, but there is a non-trivial chance you create a LUT which just shows you another, incorrect, preview -- and you don't really have any way of checking it unless you've got a spectrometer.

3) Just live with it.

Wide-gamut displays on windows are becoming ubiquitous, so if you're delivering to the web, you might reason that your preview actually matches what most of your viewers are going to see. This does seem a little nihilistic, though.

4) Use an sRGB/R709 emulation mode if your laptop/display support it. Dell offers the Premiere Color app, which does this job for its XPS laptops. Unfortunately, DPC breaks and/or is broken depending whenever windows, your video driver, or your intel drivers get updated. No guarantees DPC is accurate even when it is working. And most other makers (as far as I can tell) don't offer true emulation modes.

5) Get a laptop with an sRGB display. This unfortunately probably rules out 4K displays, which is probably a dealbreaker. Even if you're willing to buy another computer *and* go back to HD, you'll probably find non-wide-gamut displays only on cheaper, weaker machines, and screen quality isn't likely to be great.

6) Use Vegas' color tools to correct your preview window to an image which you know is being displayed correctly.

Put an image on the Vegas timeline; open the same image in an app you know is color-managed (ie Photoshop, Firefox, ...). Put both apps side-by-side on your screen, and correct the Vegas preview to match the color-managed preview.

Obviously, there are lots of potential pitfalls here, starting with whether or not your target image is actually being displayed correctly (see: colorimeters and wide-gamut displays). Maybe the safest solution is to just use the Vegas Secondary Color Corrector to turn down the saturation until it matches the sRGB image. On my screen, a desaturation of about .708 seems to match. You could also correct the gamma to match R709's slightly different curve.

Export your corrections as a LUT for future use -- and don't forget to turn this off when you are rendering!

The advantage of using your eyes to desaturate is you are getting a good sRGB emulation, at least in terms of saturation, which is probably the biggest problem (switch the fx on/off to see just how big the difference is--it's huge).

A disadvantage of this method is everything else on your screen -- and your windows desktop -- remain oversaturated, which may pull your eyes in the direction of adding too much saturation to your edits.

7) Wait for Windows to correctly interpret wide-gamut displays. This could be a long wait.

 

If anyone out there has another workaround for wide-gamut displays, please let me know.

 

Kommentare

Yelandkeil schrieb am 05.06.2021 um 21:07 Uhr

 

That that sunlight hasn't been studied is a big pity.

 

Zuletzt geändert von Yelandkeil am 07.06.2021, 09:49, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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RogerS schrieb am 06.06.2021 um 06:23 Uhr

What about calibrating and profiling the monitor to its native gamut and then just using Vegas normally?

I'm using a NEC AdobeRGB gamut external screen here calibrated with the i1Display Pro.

Sample side by side of PDI target in VP 18 vs Photoshop.

Zuletzt geändert von RogerS am 06.06.2021, 06:28, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

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Try the
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VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

ALO schrieb am 07.06.2021 um 02:44 Uhr

Unless you are actually taking a picture of your screen, a screenshot won't show any monitor differences. That said, you should be seeing a difference--I think.

Everytime I think I understand color management in Windows I end up learning something new and feeling lost again, so take this as possibly true:

Since PS is color-managed and Vegas is not (unless you're using ACES in FR32 which I'm guessing you're not), if you preview an sRGB image in Vegas, it should look different compared to Photoshop. You should also be seeing different colors if you look at the image in a Windows Explorer view compared to Photoshop.

If it looks the same...I don't know. Do you have photoshop edit-->color settings set to "monitor color" instead of sRGB or aRGB? That would not be a color-managed workflow. If not, I've got no idea why you'd be seeing the same colors in both apps.

I do wonder if people are by now so used to seeing over-saturated colors on wide-gamut displays that they just assume that's how things are supposed to look. I've gotten used to it since Premier Color broke, and it's only seeing the correct image displayed in PS that reminds me just how different an sRGB image looks when you incorrectly map it to Adobe RGB.

??

You should be able to see an immediate and big difference if you open an sRGB image in Photoshop and then go edit-->assign profile to change it to Adobe RGB. Right?

RogerS schrieb am 07.06.2021 um 11:52 Uhr

Actually, I just realized an important flaw- the file I used was tagged AdobeRGB while I thought it was sRGB. (not a test image I've used much, usually I put color space in the file name).

Quick test:

Vegas and Davinci Resolve look the same

Resolve and Photoshop do not look the same.

(source is sRGB photo)

Output from Vegas and MPC Classic video player (via MadVR) look the same on AdobeRGB screen (saturated) but somewhat muted on a sRGB display, so it you toned down the colors on the AdobeRGB screen it would look dull on a normal display. That suggests you have to pick one or the other to target.

Quick sanity check on YouTube- same video open on AdobeRGB and sRGB monitor... one looks more saturated. So if you stay within one environment (edit and view on the same type screen) it will look fine but not switching between them.

My phone (Pixel 3a) looks somewhere between the two (it claims to be 94% of AdobeRGB with stronger greens than my sRGB monitor but red is a bit weaker than the AdobeRGB one).

Let me do a bit more testing when I have time.

Musicvid schrieb am 07.06.2021 um 17:02 Uhr

if you preview an sRGB image in Vegas, it should look different compared to Photoshop. 

No, sRGB = "No Color Management", independent of the viewer. It is the non-default profiles, Adobe RGB for example, that Vegas doesn't respond to.

 

ALO schrieb am 08.06.2021 um 02:33 Uhr

I am referring to sRGB the color space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB

Vegas is not the problem here; it is Windows' inability to correctly handle wide-gamut monitors, hence the need for workarounds.

RogerS schrieb am 08.06.2021 um 08:06 Uhr

I'm going to test NEC Spectraview's ability to switch between sRGB and native (AdobeRGB) gamuts and see how well that works (or doesn't.) I'm overdue for a recalibration anyway.

Beyond that I'd say since Rec 709 is basically sRGB it's preferable to use such a monitor for color grading video, but modern phones, P3 and AdobeRGB displays will all look oversaturated.

ALO schrieb am 09.06.2021 um 19:12 Uhr

Yes, I just checked my phone and I realize at least on a Samsung OLED, Android is oversaturating colors also. Which calls in question whether it even makes sense to try to compensate for the color shift, or just correct to a wide-gamut and figure most of your audience will see the same view. ??

RogerS schrieb am 10.06.2021 um 02:58 Uhr

I think the answer is grade and deliver to REC 709 which is the standard that covers the majority of TVs and computer screens and accept that it will be more saturated on some smartphone/P3/AdobeRGB displays until something is done to address monitor gamuts for video.
(Though if you want to prioritize phones you could, though it's all approximate what any given phone has for gamut)

ALO schrieb am 12.06.2021 um 20:02 Uhr

One other possible solution (or "solution") if you are using an intel machine is to use intel's graphics command center (you can download and install this if it's not already there) to desaturate the display. This seems to act like a profile applied OS-wide, so everything from your desktop to windows explorer to apps like Vegas and Photoshop will be universally desaturated to better match what an sRGB display would show you.

I feel compelled to add that this may be kind of like waving a white flag when it comes to color management. I think IGCC sits underneath any display profiles you create, so maybe you can still use your custom display profiles, but clearly this is not an ideal way to preview color.

I don't expect we'll see a windows solution to the issue anytime soon. Windows color management was awful even before wide-gamut displays, and now if windows did correctly show sRGB content, people would probably complain it looks lifeless and desaturated because they're so used to the rich colors of the mismatched wide-gamut displays.

Yelandkeil schrieb am 13.06.2021 um 14:55 Uhr

 

Is this topic discussing

color calibration?

color spaces?

color gamut?

color management?

I have two Samsung monitors with 300cd/m². Under Windows10 I can do everything from Rec.709/sRGB to Rec.2020 with HDR10 motion pictures.

That "people would probably complain it looks lifeless and desaturated because they're so used to the rich colors of the mismatched wide-gamut displays" are really not including me.

What a pity.

 

 

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RogerS schrieb am 13.06.2021 um 16:07 Uhr

 

Is this topic discussing

color calibration?

color spaces?

color gamut?

color management?

I have two Samsung monitors with 300cd/m². Under Windows10 I can do everything from Rec.709/sRGB to Rec.2020 with HDR10 motion pictures.

That "people would probably complain it looks lifeless and desaturated because they're so used to the rich colors of the mismatched wide-gamut displays" are really not including me.

What a pity.

It's discussing color gamuts of newer monitor hardware and the lack of color management for video under Windows (vs say MacOS with ColorSync).

Your monitors must have modes for the different color gamuts?

(300cd/m2 is high for Rec 709 but low for HDR.)

Yelandkeil schrieb am 13.06.2021 um 18:05 Uhr


2. Your monitors must have modes for the different color gamuts?

1. (300cd/m2 is high for Rec 709 but low for HDR.)

1, I'm not going to slight anyone. But!

Are you really really sure that 300cd/m2 is high for Rec 709 but low for HDR?

2, If you have some hardware that you cannot bring it under control, that's your problem.

No experience yet boost about "Wide Gamut Monitor Workarounds", or Windows' blablabla...that's slighting.

The picture shown with 2 identical Monitors, which one is with or without Windows Color-Management?

I repeat the same procedure one more time --

 

And youtube normal video --

And youtube HDR10-video --

Just look, think, think over. Then comment.

Fancy yields nothing.

**one hint: Rec.709/sRGB is the primary's primary color space of all colorspaces.

Zuletzt geändert von Yelandkeil am 13.06.2021, 18:10, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
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*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS schrieb am 13.06.2021 um 18:32 Uhr

1. Yes.
ICC defines REC 709 at 100 cd/m2: https://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/BT709.xalter
PQ HDR REC 2100 has peak luminance of 1000 cd/m2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2100
(There are HLG variants that are between these values)

2. Well yes, that's a problem that the OS makes it impossible to control hardware for video playback. Photos are fine.

For color settings are you talking about the new "Windows HD Color settings"?

It doesn't do anything for the situation of Rec 709 appearing incorrectly on wide gamut displays (at least on my AdobeRGB display. It may do something for actual HDR displays, but that's an entirely different setup.)

We aren't talking about HDR video, so no need to post examples of it.

Zuletzt geändert von RogerS am 13.06.2021, 18:44, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD and 2TB Samsung 980 Pro cache drive, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit https://pcpartpicker.com/b/rZ9NnQ

ASUS Zenbook Pro 14 Intel i9-13900H with Intel graphics iGPU with latest ASUS driver, NVIDIA 4060 (8GB) with latest studio driver, 48GB system ram, Windows 11 Home, 1TB Samsung SSD.

VEGAS Pro 21.208
VEGAS Pro 22.239

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark (works with VP 16+): https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

RogerS schrieb am 13.06.2021 um 18:38 Uhr

I'm going to test NEC Spectraview's ability to switch between sRGB and native (AdobeRGB) gamuts and see how well that works (or doesn't.) I'm overdue for a recalibration anyway.

Beyond that I'd say since Rec 709 is basically sRGB it's preferable to use such a monitor for color grading video, but modern phones, P3 and AdobeRGB displays will all look oversaturated.

Update: I tested Spectraview in sRGB mode, running a new calibration for native gamut and sRGB. Toggling between them, at least for the monitor I'm using, it's not helpful. It seems to rein in greens somewhat but not the reds, which is the biggest gamut difference between this monitor and sRGB. Perhaps newer or better NECs work better.

So my conclusion is it is better to color correct in Vegas on the native sRGB monitor and use the other for the timeline and scopes.

studio-4 schrieb am 15.06.2021 um 08:48 Uhr

Actually, I just realized an important flaw- the file I used was tagged AdobeRGB while I thought it was sRGB. (not a test image I've used much, usually I put color space in the file name).

Quick test:

Vegas and Davinci Resolve look the same

Resolve and Photoshop do not look the same.

(source is sRGB photo)

Output from Vegas and MPC Classic video player (via MadVR) look the same on AdobeRGB screen (saturated) but somewhat muted on a sRGB display, so it you toned down the colors on the AdobeRGB screen it would look dull on a normal display. That suggests you have to pick one or the other to target.

Quick sanity check on YouTube- same video open on AdobeRGB and sRGB monitor... one looks more saturated. So if you stay within one environment (edit and view on the same type screen) it will look fine but not switching between them.

My phone (Pixel 3a) looks somewhere between the two (it claims to be 94% of AdobeRGB with stronger greens than my sRGB monitor but red is a bit weaker than the AdobeRGB one).

Let me do a bit more testing when I have time.

@RogerS

Holy cow! Is that a DSC chip-chart? Those things are crazy-expensive (e.g., $800-$3,600). I just had to buy a chip-chart for work (to analyze hypergamma presets on a Sony FS7), but I only bought the bottom-of-the-line $168 DSC chip-chart. I only need the 11-step cross-grayscale part for assessing shoulder roll-off, so I don't really need the color part (i.e., the expensive part). We could just use a Macbeth chart instead for casual tests.

We used to have a fancy backlit chip-chart (not sure how good those actually are), but it was thrown away when we moved (I work for a major broadcast TV network). They literally threw away millions of dollars of gear—four dumpsters of it, and not the kind of dumpsters in the back of 7-11, the 48' trailer-kind!


DSC Labs 11-step grayscale test chart ($168).

asus laptop system specifications:
Asus 17.3" Republic of Gamers Strix G17 model: 77H0ROG1.
Ryzen 9 5900HX 3.3GHz (4.6GHz boost), eight-core CPU.
Nvidia GeForce RTX 3060 (6GB GDDR6).
32GB Crucial 3200MHz DDR4 (x2 16GB 120-pin SO-DIMMs).
512GB M.2 NMVe PCIe SSD (available second M.2 slot).

OS: installed on 7/1/2021:
Windows 10 Home 64-bit; OS version 20H2; build 19042.1052.
Windows Feature Experience Pack 120.2212.2020.0.

asus laptop installed applications:
Vegas Movie Studio 17 Platinum; version 17.0 (build 221); purchased via download 29 May 2021.
Microsoft Edge (default browser; no plug-ins).

asus laptop OpenFX add-ons:
BorisFX Continuum 2021.5 (subscription).
NewBlue Elements 3 Overlay.

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HP Z440 Intel Xeon E5-1650 v3 3.5GHz (4GHz-boost), quad-core CPU.
32GB DDR4 ECC RAM.
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AMD Radeon R7200.

OS:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit; OS version 20H2; build 19042.985.
Windows Feature Experience Pack 120.2212.2020.0.

HP desktop installed applications:
Vegas Movie Studio 17 Platinum; version 17.0 (build 221); purchased via download 29 May 2021.
Blackmagic Design Media Express 2.3 for Windows 10.
WinDV 1.2.3.
Microsoft Edge (default browser; no plug-ins).

HP desktop OpenFX add-ons:
FXhome Ignite Advanced VFX pack.
BorisFX' Stylize Unit 2020.5.
NewBlue Elements 3 Overlay.

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Sony NEX-FS100 Super35 1080p24/50/60 digital-cine camera.
Sony NEX-FS700 Super35 1080p24/50/60/240/960 high-speed digital-cine camera.
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Sony DSR11 DVCAM VTR.

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ALO schrieb am 16.06.2021 um 20:45 Uhr

Everyone I'm not feeling a lot of confidence in my recommendations above.

If your laptop doesn't have a good sRGB emulation mode, I'm thinking the only real solution is to use a second monitor. ASUS makes this https://www.asus.com/us/Displays-Desktops/Monitors/ProArt/ProArt-Display-PA148CTV/ which at least is portable and not hideously expensive (but not 4K).

As I continue testing everything else looks like a can of worms to me.

Zuletzt geändert von ALO am 16.06.2021, 20:52, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

Dell XPS 15 9520 (main)

i9-12900HK 2.5GHz 32GB RAM

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 Ti

current Windows/Vegas builds (non-beta/non-preview)

Musicvid schrieb am 17.06.2021 um 00:05 Uhr

I am referring to sRGB the color space.

Me too.

if you preview an sRGB image in Vegas, it should look different compared to Photoshop. 

No, sRGB = "No Color Management", independent of the viewer. It is the non-default profiles, Adobe RGB for example, that Vegas doesn't respond to.

 

 

ALO schrieb am 15.10.2021 um 23:42 Uhr

An update:

After much wailing and gnashing, the solution I've gone with is using DisplayCal to calibrate & profile my monitor, then using DisplayCal's 3DLUT creator to create a 3DLUT from my monitor's icm profile, which I then use on Vegas' output fx to correct my preview from "no color management" to REC709.

I regret that it took me so long to adopt this solution -- I was deterred by DisplayCal's complexity.

DisplayCal seems to work a lot better with XRite (Calibrite) devices compared to others (Datacolor), and the learning curve is daunting, but for those of you editing on laptops, this is a legit workflow once you get it working -- you get a calibrated, profiled, gamut-accurate preview.

Some things to beware of:

1. Your windows desktop, explorer folders, and all of Vegas's GUI components (ie icons, etc) will still display incorrectly oversaturated because windows/Vegas are not color-managed.

2. You will have to remember to disable the LUT before you render, otherwise your final output will be incorrect.

3. The LUT is a transform that will make sRGB/REC709 sources appear correct on your display. It's not going to work as expected if you put anything else on your timeline (unless you create an appropriate LUT for those specific sources).

 

Musicvid schrieb am 16.10.2021 um 05:45 Uhr

You sound like you're promoting your LUT, but are you going to make it available for testing?

If this is anything like what you're doing, here is my repurposed HDR 2020 PQ ->709 LUT

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HQGKE5Fzg_W5vsP8wJcmzRIAtCRKevsV/view?usp=sharing

ALO schrieb am 16.10.2021 um 06:14 Uhr

While I often dream of entering the lucrative LUTs for sale biz and making millions (ha!), each LUT as I'm describing has to be created for your own unique hardware. Profile & Calibrate your unique monitor, then use DisplayCal to turn that data into a 3DLUT transform to correct for your specific monitor.

So far, it seems to work beautifully. Looking at images on my Vegas timeline, they exactly match how they appear within color-managed Photoshop. As far as I know, if you are using a windows-managed wide-gamut monitor w/o a hardware sRGB/REC709 mode, this is the best way to get a correct preview within Vegas.

Here's the documentation, such as it is:

https://hub.displaycal.net/wiki/3d-lut-creation-workflow-for-resolve/

I would love to share, but all you'd get is a way to view things correctly on my laptop...which you don't have. :)

 

Musicvid schrieb am 16.10.2021 um 06:25 Uhr

You don't understand. I have used DisplayCal for years. I even have a tutorial up on this site for adapting DisplayCal for the analog Spyder2 Pro. With it, I have created custom profiles to match my monitor, scanners, and printer for my Archiving / DTP business.

If your LUT is not HDR->709, or if you don't wish to share it, that's fine. It's their scarcity that interested me, and I was only interested in comparing. Good luck with your project.

RogerS schrieb am 16.10.2021 um 08:29 Uhr

That's a good idea. I've used DisplayCal for years and can try it with my wide gamut (not HDR) display.

As a workaround I just switched preview monitors to the sRGB one which works.

ALO schrieb am 16.10.2021 um 17:23 Uhr

If your LUT is not HDR->709 ...

Not as I understand it. HDR is an actual specification (REC2020?) I believe. By "wide gamut monitor" I'm referring to any of the now ubiquitous (IPS/OLED/WLED/etc) displays which cover more than sRGB (usually around 98% Adobe RGB) but are otherwise uncalibrated, and which create no end of headaches when it comes to color management under windows.