Great, thank you. I'll give that a try!

I don't have experience with HDR, as I lack a HDR-capable display for editing. With normal 8 and 32 bit projects I didn't have luck with AdobeRGB files within Vegas- the software doesn't appear to be ICC aware and they didn't display properly. The Adobe file would look quite desaturated vs the sRGB one. I can try to change the color space on the image, but AdobeRGB isn't an option and selecting semi-similar ones like P3-D65 didn't do anything when looking at scopes. So for color, I think you are better off exporting in sRGB. For how to get the extended range of brightness captured in the raw file to display along HLG footage I also don't know.

AdobeRGB profile stills won't desaturate in RGB viewing space; they will sometimes look a little warm to a trained eye.

Assuming output is to be 2020 (709), the levels conversion of the RGB stills is still the place to start. The profile differences lie upstream of Vegas, and is quite minor by comparison.

Maybe the previous test file I was using was defective, or PNG was causing issues, so I went to a known good test target I used for evaluating printer profiles that's in ProPhotoRGB. I converted to an 8-bit AdobeRGB jpeg and compared side by side with Vegas Pro 18:

Some of the more saturated colors look different, like the strawberries compared to color managed photoshop. (It's a bit hard to compare apples to apples with AdobeRGB files and screenshots as the screenshot itself is only sRGB I believe, and I don't know how to deal with that. Here's the file itself if you want to test it.)

To confirm that Vegas isn't ICC aware I then went back to the ProPhoto original and saved as a jpeg tagged ProPhoto.

It's not remotely similar on screen or in the screenshot.


So I don't think converting to photo ICC profiles other than sRGB is a good way to give Vegas extra color gamut.

Out of curiosity I switched to Vegas 32-bit HDR mode with HLG (but don't have a HDR capable display so I picked a P3 view transform that is maybe a reasonable match for this AdobeRGB gamut screen).
I looked for color spaces that both Vegas and my version of Photoshop share (Vegas does not have AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB).
I converted from ProPhoto to REC 2020 and then selected that color space on the picture within Vegas. Compared to a sRGB file with sRGB color space selected, saturated colors do look more saturated. To the eye it looks a bit different than Photoshop, but I do realize my view transform probably doesn't quite match the monitor. This is in 32-bit mode and the waveform went from pure black to white for both the sRGB and Rec2020 file, and reasonably matches Photoshop, so I don't see a need for further levels transforms for viewing. No idea if this is helpful to you, but perhaps see what photos converted to REC 2020 look like on your HDR monitor.

Canon seems to be addressing this by going from raw to 10-bit HEIF in BT2020.
https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/en/hdr-pq-heif-breaking-through-the-limits-of-jpeg

That particular image, if you have a source copy, is Adobe RGB according to metadata, and yes, it is a bit warm when viewed on a normal monitor. In fact, I correctly guessed the profile first time I played with it.

So you may already be stacking ICC Profiles, which is uncharted territory for me. Your images are what I would expect when doing that, however. sRGB is truer (less warm) on a standard monitor Yes, I learned from you and my own testing a while back that Vegas is not ICC aware

The source is a 16-bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF- I converted it in Photoshop ("convert profile") to various profiles, reduced to 8-bit after that and embedded the ICC profile when I saved the jpeg. The grayscale is neutral but you're right that AdobeRGB has extended reds compared to sRGB. I am viewing it on a calibrated AdobeRGB monitor so can see the differences in color quite clearly when I convert to profiles with smaller gamuts than ProPhotoRGB.

This test image has a useful array of little touches to help assess profiles, like the gradients, memory colors like strawberry, the sun which can quickly posterize, etc.

I don't think I'm stacking profiles exactly- I'm taking an image with color numbers that refer to AdobeRGB, and later Rec2020, values. As Vegas is unaware of the ICC tag that defines the numbers, I switched to HDR mode and used the media color space feature to tell Vegas how to interpret the numbers. So I think this is an alternative to ICC metadata (which I get, as video doesn't use such things, but it would be nice if Vegas could read ICCs for stills automatically and support common ones like AdobeRGB and ProPhotoRGB).

But yes, this is uncharted territory for me as well. When @Stuart-R figures it all out I hope he can come back and set us straight! Without any way for me to view the final HDR file I can't be of more use.

I've been using that image for some time -- we have different versions, so at least one of us is using a cumulative generational copy. I remain very doubtful that the original of the babies in your composite target was created in ProPhoto space, and as we both know well, cumulative profile metadata tags get erased with each subsequent generation, but not its embedded visual fingerprint, which is identifiable.

I believe the image in your composite may have come from a Getty Photodisc and was mapped, (not interpolated) to ProPhoto Space for the composite copy you have obtained. It's still Adobe RGB, or sRGb, or whatever with a different nametag.

That said, your examples are entirely consistent with my observations of Adobe RGB vs. sRGB / 709 behavior over the years, and are what I would expect from your description of steps taken. The difference in our conclusions, I suspect, is only a matter of interpretation, stemming from different histories. IOW, we agree in principle, if not in theory.

And yes, I still agree it's a bit warm.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Just for fun -- I made a target using the Getty image and some of my own stuff, it's RGB TIFF (roughly 5k), 4800x3600, tagged sRGB.

The best format to use for HDR is minimum 10 bit RAW shot in adobe RGB color space. The studio levels filter won't help because it is made for 8 bit. In VEGAS, you want to go into the file properties menu and set the image(s) color space to "Rec2020".

I am assuming 8 bit YUV output, and nothing else. With HDR and HLG in the mix, the 8 bit RGB stills become the lowest common denominator, and must be honored as such, otherwise they will look out of place. 709 acts as a subset of 2020, so no worries there.

No matter what route is taken to get the rest of the media there, the RGB stills must be conformed to 16-235 to prevent clipping. It's so easy to read too much into a simple situation, unless the OP has a different delivery container in mind.

The OP is specifying their project (and likely output as a result) is Rec2020 10 bit HDR. The problem is, they are mixing SDR stills with an HDR project, which is why the brightness values do not align. For HDR, there's 1024 levels to work with, not 256, so the brightness levels are not going to align if you're clamping a 10 bit picture to 8 bit studio levels.

Ever tried it in 10 bit? How's that look?

Truth is, OP has not stated what his output will be. 8 bit is logical, and free of the upsampling issues we are both aware of.

It should (in theory) limit the brightness levels to less than 1/4 of the range of 10 bit, so it should produce results similar to the problem the OP is describing, with the non-HDR images not looking as good as the HDR content they're displayed next to. That's why I recommended going with a 10-12 bit RAW image format for best results. It doesn't make sense to work in HDR projects unless the output format is going to be HDR as well, so I'm assuming that is what they're after. If the images they add are 10 bit RAW shot in Adobe RGB as I recommended, there's no need for upsampling.

Yes, I only saw PNG and didn't realize he was starting with better.

It should (in theory) limit the brightness levels to less than 1/4 of the range of 10 bit, so it should produce results similar to the problem the OP is describing, with the non-HDR images not looking as good as the HDR content they're displayed next to. That's why I recommended going with a 10-12 bit RAW image format for best results. It doesn't make sense to work in HDR projects unless the output format is going to be HDR as well, so I'm assuming that is what they're after. If the images they add are 10 bit RAW shot in Adobe RGB as I recommended, there's no need for upsampling.

 

Hi @fr0sty, I was hoping you'd chime in here. That all makes sense to me except for AdobeRGB. By its nature, raw files don't have an embedded color space, that comes later. Cameras are capable of capturing beyond AdobeRGB. Even if you set a Canon camera to AdobeRGB, for example, it only affects the jpegs (and embedded preview?)

So I just took a 14-bit Sony DNG and dropped it into a HLG project. Then what? I assigned it a color space as REC 2020 and the colors are okay and do take up the full tonal range.

For someone wanting more precise control over the image, how would you do that? Does Vegas have a raw debayering engine? Does it take advantage of the benefits of high-bit raw like non-destructive white balance and highlight recovery?

The workflow Canon recommends of doing raw processing with their software and then outputting 10-bit HEIC makes more sense to me (but I assume Vegas doesn't support HEIC). Is there any workflow Vegas does support to output high-bit, but not raw, color-corrected files for use in HDR projects?

(By the way the reference image I shared was a compilation by Digital Outback Photo from here. It is a 16-bit TIFF in ProPhotoRGB but the constituent images that are a part of it weren't sourced from the same places. There's no penalty to converting into a wider color space at a high bit depth.

For the left-hand PhotoDisk image, MusicVid has the original and the informative instructions state it was produced as AdobeRGB. Looking at this image in Photoshop proof preview, it barely has any data out of sRGB range, only in the deep shadows. Unsaturated colors like these types of skin don't really need a wide gamut anyway. Amusingly the PhotoDisk image is itself a compilation (scanning back shot of objects/prints) which include the original "PhotoDisc Signature Series #16 'Everyday People.'" Not sure how that was shot, but the warmth in skin tones may come from the film it was shot on and the gamut of the ~20 year old inks it was printed with. Still a useful reference in that you can see tonal differences between profiles quite clearly.)

Also, Frosty, can you not use the color space function to map 8-bit sources into high-bit HDR? I was just thinking that until the Sony a7sIII, all their consumer cameras were limited to 8-bit for S-log and HLG, but yet at least for HLG are intended for HDR displays?
Yes, they're missing tonal gradations that a 10-bit file would have but should still work. And if you can do it for 8-bit video files, why not 8-bit stills? You could convert those to Rec2020, log or other formats.

All you're doing is "adding air" as Musicvid likes to say, you're not making it look any better, and side by side with actual HDR footage, it will stand out.

Yes, if shooting raw, color space should not matter.

As for workflow, any high bit intermediate codec will work, or you can wait for the VEGAS ProRes RAW update to drop.

Air = Banding + Shadow Noise

8->8-> 10->10-> 8->10->

With the banding checks in my new test image, the narrow banding between native 10 bit and 8->10 bit are visible with enhancement in the bottom two bits in this simulated test, but as shown inversely in previous tests, they can be clipped from the output, which will probably look better.

So it's not as bad as I had previously thought. Still learning here.

I understand you aren't adding any new data by putting 8-bits in a 10 or 16-bit container, but thought least white would be mapped to white, etc. so you won't have jarringly dull images next to vibrant HDR ones?
FWIW, here's what an Rec.2020 8-bit TIFF histogram looks like on a 32-bit HLG timeline:


The bigger problem here is what high-bit intermediate photo formats does Vegas support? Vegas is very limited. While TIFF and PNG can both support 16-bit depth, they look totally wrong in Vegas- at least compared to their 8-bit counterparts. (16-bit tiff on left, 8-bit on right; both REC 2020 color space)

I then tried exporting a processed DNG out of ACR, and it kind of seems to have worked- it at least has the lens correction and a brightness change I made. Color's pretty different, though.

Interesting conversation, at some point I'll have to dive in properly. Still feels like a frontier, where standards and workflows are being upended. Which is also exciting.

All points well taken. Now I'm tired...

Yes, you do want to properly tone map the 8 bit footage to 10 bit, but you can still tell a difference... it just won't be as jarring. Always best to stick to 10 bit rec 2020, Adobe RGB (if Rec2020 isn't available and you're not rendering to a RAW format) or RAW when doing HDR.

In regards to you asking why I say use Adobe RGB when RAW doesn't require a color space... I use Adobe RGB because VEGAS does not support RAW images, VEGAS Image can't open RAW images from my cameras, and lightroom does not support rec2020 output. So, if I'm editing a timelapse, I have to edit thousands of images in lightroom, export them as 16 bit psd's or PNGs in adobe RGB, then import them into VEGAS in an HDR project, set the color space of the image sequence to Rec2020, then I'm ready to go.