Alphachannel beside QT + PNG

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 11:42 AM

So i wonder.

If any of you have to chose another method/format, beside making a quicktime mov file with PNG, how you do it in vegas pro?

I have some lossless codecs installed who would be able to do that, like cineform, magicyuv, legarith, DNxHD etc. but vegas does not really care about that.

I am asking because for some reason, if i add an .mov file with transparency/alphachannel containing PNG as its internal pictureformat, i get big lagging and stuttering, that would be not so bad by itself, because in editing i just disable the track for the moment when not needed. But it also takes so much time in rendering when this alphachannel files are to be processed. As en example, a 5 minute clip to export takes about 3,5 minutes time to render (1080p) with some effects on it, and about a third of the time make up 20 seconds in this 5 minutes because these .mov alphachannel clips are in there.

And i have no explenation why that is. Thats why i am looking for a method/format which would make vegas accept the alphachennel export and import and play it smoothly.

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 12:15 PM

I believe Happy Otter can now access Alpha in Magic YUV and UT, and a couple of other vfw codecs?

You can also modify aviplug,dll in a hex editor.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/why-alpha-channel-on-uncompressed-only--83354/?page=2

In addition, Vegas supports Alpha in Uncompressed,0 AVI Animation and DNxHD (QuickTime).

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 12:28 PM

i saw this post. but it does not satisfy me really.

but yes, i could try the hex editing.

avi uncompressed is no alternative, the file gets like 15gb big for 10 seconds. now you can imagine that no matter how fast your storage may be, it will be a hard time to playback that smoothly =)

Marco. wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:03 PM

Besides this hex editing you've got three choices (assumed you don't want to chromakey the video):

1. AVI uncompressed

2. Image sequences like PNG.

3. Using the alpha channel as an separate black&white/gradient video and do a mask composition with it.

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:07 PM

Magic YUV and UT both preview flawlessly on the old Core Duo laptop, and I can testify Alpha works flawlessly with the modified dll.

PNG, and Animation are as cumbersome as uncompressed. Here are some intermediates with a smaller footprint, not to mention 64 bit architecture, unlike QuickTime.

If you download Happy Otter now, there "may" be a slight advantage when it goes off beta, but that's just a guess.

Marco. wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:12 PM

I forgot Happy Otter Scripts. Using HOS in Vegas Pro it offers a render option to include the alpha channel information into any render format selected in HOS.

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:15 PM

I'm using alpha in UT RGB on a daily basis now, and couldn't be happier. 87% smaller than uncompressed rgba.

Not sure alpha in HOS works with anything other than vfw libraries, though.

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:23 PM

Besides this hex editing you've got three choices (assumed you don't want to chromakey the video):

1. AVI uncompressed

2. Image sequences like PNG.

3. Using the alpha channel as an separate black&white/gradient video and do a mask composition with it.

those are not good choices at all. for the time being, the hex editing is the solution, but it feels not like a good one. especially because after the next vegas update it gets most likely lost again (writing down a note with a "tutorial" how to do it again.)

but it makes a hugh difference.

10 second clip .mov PNG 2160p 50fps > 1080p nvenc = 7 fps avg
10 second clip .avi LAGARITH 2160p 50fps > 1080o nvenc = 33fps avg

i chose lagarith because it has a fantastic compression and more than enough performance.
10 second Lagarith = 34MB
10 second MagicYUV = 500MB

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:24 PM

I'm using alpha in UT RGB on a daily basis now, and couldn't be happier. 87% smaller than uncompressed rgba.

Not sure alpha in HOS works with anything other than vfw libraries, though.

@Musicvid have you compared it to lagarith or magicyuv?

Marco. wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:30 PM

"Not sure alpha in HOS works with anything other than vfw libraries, though."

I just see you are right. I tested ProRes, HQX and MagixAVC from HOS and that didn't work for the alpha channel.

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 1:46 PM

"Not sure alpha in HOS works with anything other than vfw libraries, though."

I just see you are right. I tested ProRes, HQX and MagixAVC from HOS and that didn't work for the alpha channel.

i wonder if the vfw x264 codec would work.

nothing to wonder anymore. i tried. unfortunally there is no way for x264 (at least with the vfw x264 version) to add alphachannel. would be fantastic for archiving semi important stuff.

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 2:47 PM

Musicvid have you compared it to lagarith or magicyuv

Yes, links to the legacy tests (2011) as well as the new shootout, which includes the graphic above, are in my signature.

chose lagarith because it has a fantastic compression and more than enough performance.
10 second Lagarith = 34MB
10 second MagicYUV = 500MB

You were apparently running Lagarith in Y'CbCr mode, and Magic in RGB. Apples and oranges, should be comparable sizes in the same mode. You can also run Magic YUV that way (422 or 420) if it is file size you are after. Also, Lagarith is buggy as hell in certain other applications (Handbrake) due to sloppy metadata, therefore it was ruled out of my recent tests.

unfortunally there is no way for x264 (at least with the vfw x264 version) to add alphachannel. would be fantastic for archiving semi important stuff.

That is correct. I don't recall seeing an interframe codec or container that supports Alpha, including x264. (vfwx264 can run interframe, but without native b-frame support, more like mpeg-2 compression). May have missed something, but I've been at this since the first-ever software mpeg-2 beta codec, nineteen years ago iirc.

 

eikira wrote on 4/13/2019, 3:02 PM
 

Then you were apparently running Lagarith in Y'CbCr mode, and Magic in RGB. Apples and oranges, should be comparable sizes in the same mode. Also, Lagarith is buggy as hell in certain other applications due to sloppy metadata.

No. I set Lagarith and MagicYUV both specifically to RGB.

You thought otherwise becuase of the big filesize difference?

I don't recall ever seeing an interframe codec or container that supports Alpha, including x264. May have missed something, but I still have the first software mpeg-2 beta codec ever introduced, nineteen years ago iirc (tmpgenc beta 12 with English sideload).

i can assure you, that was not the first =). somewhere i read once that apperantly it is possible, but i have no clue how to achieve it.

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 3:32 PM

Lagarith is a good codec when used inside Vegas, as shown in the 2011 test, and I encourage you to use it if it suits your needs.

I see all the legacy QuickTime codecs, including some that support Alpha, were tested there as well! Interesting stuff.

Musicvid wrote on 4/13/2019, 4:14 PM

Prior to about 2000, mpeg-2 decoders (save for $2,000 Cinemacraft) were on hardware chips, and not used for anything but DVD playback. Prior to Tsunami (tmpgenc) and eventually DVDAuthor, we open-source video hobbyists only knew about intraframe compression. Tmpgenc was forced to remove the codec from beta 12b and purchase a commercial license for its paid version. Yes, I was around then.

Back to topic, if you know of a common interframe codec that include Alpha, I'd love to hear about it.