my week in render mess

Mindmatter wrote on 8/29/2018, 5:13 PM

Sorry for the sensationalist headline...but here goes:

Since I've been on windows 10 pro, with a second fresh install, things have been going much better. Renders were faster, Vegas ran smoother, all seemed just more fluent and easy. V15 ran pretty well and was stable. I even dared to render a few projects with GPU on, which repeatedly produced totally messy results in Win 7. All went OK until I finished my rather complex compositing project with the kids workshop I had posted about a while ago.

Things started to get messy again. Renders showed injected random frames of some event somewhere in the project, like for 6-8 frames long, in between 2 adjacent clips, and always on a different spot of the timeline / final clip. There was no guessing where ( and why) it would occur next. A try to render with V16 was a catastrophe. Composited tracks messed up, masks suddenly didn't work or showed thick borders, carefully dialed in luma keys with FX chains before them suddenly spilled all over the place. And that's with the exact same project, settings, GPU, safety measures like RAM to zero, show progress while render OFF etc.

OK back to V15 in no time. Render with GPU off. Now, all of a sudden, a mask goes haywire that's been rendering just fine before, another key suddenly pixelated heavily and showed saw tooth borders.

Turns out that with the mask issue, something in the FX chain was "wrong", pan/crop had to be at the end of the FX chain to make the mask actually mask. Strange tho that it worked OK in all the renders before that.

As I write, I'm rendering - again - with GPU off on V15, praying it turns out OK. The amount of hours I lost rendering, watching the result ( luckily only 7 minutes), re-rendering, error hunting, trying, is just insane. with GPU on, the render for this project takes 36 minutes, GPU off about 80. A good reason to try and leave GPU on.

Now, I really try and avoid joining the complaining choir here, and I've mostly been fervently on Vegas' side among colleagues and in discussions and I've repeatedly expressed y lot of enthusiasm for Vegas and also magix, but seriously, guys, I'm losing my good will and patience here. The random issues, capricious behavior, the many workarounds, then time lost because of rather indeterminable issues and messed up renders is just becoming disheartening ( and that's a diplomatic way to put it). Not to mention the cash I just parted with for V16.

I have no idea to what degree other NLEs suffer from similar dysfunctions, but I'm starting to look around for alternatives, as much as I hate to. why is it that Vegas is so hard to get right? Is it the hardware chaos among users, is it some voodoo in the coding, is built on old and messy code? I just don't quite get it.

Ok rant over, time to get away from the screens.

 

 

Last changed by Mindmatter

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, 12x 3.7 GHz
32 GB DDR4-3200 MHz (2x16GB), Dual-Channel
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070, 8GB GDDR6, HDMI, DP, studio drivers
ASUS PRIME B550M-K, AMD B550, AM4, mATX
7.1 (8-chanel) Surround-Sound, Digital Audio, onboard
Samsung 970 EVO Plus 250GB, NVMe M.2 PCIe x4 SSD
be quiet! System Power 9 700W CM, 80+ Bronze, modular
2x WD red 6TB
2x Samsung 2TB SSD

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 8/29/2018, 5:45 PM

Thank you for the narrative. If you need help, pick a specific issue, and follow the troubleshooting guide here.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

 

fr0sty wrote on 8/29/2018, 5:48 PM

You need to file a support ticket with Magix on this one, and it would probably help if there were a way that you could export the project (with media) and upload that to google drive or something so they can try to replicate it on their end. Vegas is a nearly 20 year old program that had a LOT of bugs when they bought it, so they're still squashing some of them as well as newer ones that have come with new features along the way. This process can be very annoying, but if the criticism is going to be constructive, we need to help them get to the bottom of why this is happening. If you need temporary storage space for media, I can make you an FTP on one of my servers.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/29/2018, 5:49 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

RogerS wrote on 8/29/2018, 8:30 PM

I submitted detailed support tickets over GPU render glitches where image layers would improperly show through to the background video layer for flash frames in random places. Please do the same so they can figure out the cause. I don't intend to trial 16 until the GPU support is addressed.

Mindmatter wrote on 8/30/2018, 12:27 AM

Musicvid, I googled my self silly for tips and tricks and explanations, also in this forum, and tried all the workarounds, troubleshooting, garlick over the left shoulder throwing and voodoo I could find. Also, your answers seem to turn slightly cynical as time goes by, which doesn't really help. Next time your blood boils just because you discovered MusicMaker on your PC, I'll try something similar.

OK, you're probably right in pointing me to submit a ticket to magix for this. RogerS, sadly I'm sort of happy I'm not the only one with this bug. Oh well, you know what I mean.

fr0sty, thanks for the offer, I got large server space on my site host I can use for the project export.

Yes it definitely is constructive to work with magix and help them sort issues out. I did the same with new blue and their titler bugs, they were friendly and tried their best, the whole thing took many mails and exchanges and examples over the course of 2-3 weeks. They admitted a bug and also provided a couple of workarounds for other things, a couple of issues still seem to be left unresolved.

Still, what feels a bit weird, to say the least, is that I actually paid for software, lost a large amount of working hours because of bugs that I'm now required to help sort out. Yes, the benefit will be a better, working and bug free software... that was supposed to work in the first place. And I'm NOT being paid for this, I PAID for this. Wouldn't that otherwise be the definition of a beta tester?

Yes I know the argument - that this is the way software works these days, that the plethora of hardware combinations and interferences with drivers, OS etc make it impossible to write bug free software etc etc.

I'm willing to help, but I don't quite like the way people seem to think that as a user, i'm automatically supposed to spend my time helping to improve / debug software I paid for. If it were open source and for the common cause, it'd be a different ballgame.

 

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, 12x 3.7 GHz
32 GB DDR4-3200 MHz (2x16GB), Dual-Channel
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070, 8GB GDDR6, HDMI, DP, studio drivers
ASUS PRIME B550M-K, AMD B550, AM4, mATX
7.1 (8-chanel) Surround-Sound, Digital Audio, onboard
Samsung 970 EVO Plus 250GB, NVMe M.2 PCIe x4 SSD
be quiet! System Power 9 700W CM, 80+ Bronze, modular
2x WD red 6TB
2x Samsung 2TB SSD

fr0sty wrote on 8/30/2018, 12:40 AM

Nobody thinks that you should do anything, but simply crying over spilled milk doesn't clean it up... regardless of who spilled it. that was my only point. I've lost more than time to these bugs.. I've lost high paying annual clients, so believe me when I say I know how you feel. A software developer can only fix what they can replicate on their end, so they sometimes need help from the customers who are having problems. That's the fastest way they can right their wrong and get you a working product.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/30/2018, 12:40 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Mindmatter wrote on 8/30/2018, 12:42 AM

fr0sty, I know, and you're right. Still feels good to cry or let off some steam from time to time.

Last changed by Mindmatter on 8/30/2018, 12:45 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, 12x 3.7 GHz
32 GB DDR4-3200 MHz (2x16GB), Dual-Channel
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070, 8GB GDDR6, HDMI, DP, studio drivers
ASUS PRIME B550M-K, AMD B550, AM4, mATX
7.1 (8-chanel) Surround-Sound, Digital Audio, onboard
Samsung 970 EVO Plus 250GB, NVMe M.2 PCIe x4 SSD
be quiet! System Power 9 700W CM, 80+ Bronze, modular
2x WD red 6TB
2x Samsung 2TB SSD

RogerS wrote on 8/30/2018, 1:57 AM

I know the feeling. I want to be a user, not a bug tester, but I really don't want to deal with Premier so I put up with it. For now.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/30/2018, 2:41 AM

 

fr0sty, thanks for the offer, I got large server space on my site host I can use for the project export.

@ Mindmatter,

if you can upload your Project and are willing to share it, I am also prepared to download it and test it here. Even if I think that there may be Limits in Terms of data amount Maybe.

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 8/30/2018, 2:42 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

AVsupport wrote on 8/30/2018, 3:58 AM

@Mindmatter, have you tried disabling your internal IGP in bios and run everything of your dedicated graphics card only? This helped me a lot to stabilize my recent build PC.. thinking old codebase has issues with modern win10 gfx-memory shuffling-around..

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Norbert wrote on 8/30/2018, 4:45 AM

Its GUI and code are decades old, they should rewrite the whole code to get Vegas Pro 17 right and properly optimized for today's hardware. Since Vegas 14 sadly I rarely use Vegas for bigger projects, I just can't trust in it, I'm stuck with Premiere and recently I try to learn Resolve's editing style.

matthias-krutz wrote on 8/30/2018, 6:00 AM

The problem with me was always the dynamic RAM preview, not the use of the GPU. When rendering stopped in VP15, I set RAM Preview to 0 and then I was able to render the project completely. Free RAM was always enough available.
Randomly false frames indicate an error in the cache. If such an error occurs, you can set the value to 0. Without restarting Vegas, the effect can be checked immediately.
So, if not already done, I would set the dynamic RAM preview to 0 for testing.

Mindmatter wrote on 8/30/2018, 7:27 AM

Thanks Matthias, my RAM was on zero already. that's what prevented the render crashes, but it didn't solve the other issues.

Wolfgang, thanks for the offer, I'm uploading the project. It'll take a while, it's 30gigs.

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, 12x 3.7 GHz
32 GB DDR4-3200 MHz (2x16GB), Dual-Channel
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070, 8GB GDDR6, HDMI, DP, studio drivers
ASUS PRIME B550M-K, AMD B550, AM4, mATX
7.1 (8-chanel) Surround-Sound, Digital Audio, onboard
Samsung 970 EVO Plus 250GB, NVMe M.2 PCIe x4 SSD
be quiet! System Power 9 700W CM, 80+ Bronze, modular
2x WD red 6TB
2x Samsung 2TB SSD

marc-s wrote on 8/30/2018, 7:54 AM

One workaround I’ve used for problem projects is rendering small sections uncompressed to a new track until at least the random glitches are solved. Then I render out the entire project using the new track to my format of choice. Does not solve the other bugs of course. Also I agree that your being put in the position of a beta tester and with my past experiences with Vegas tech support I don’t even bother anymore.

 

VEGAS_CommunityManager wrote on 8/30/2018, 9:32 AM

Hi,

I just wanted to hop in and say that in the last years we have always been reading user feedback and considering such in our developement processes. Sadly, most of the time this is not noticed by users who are having trouble with bugs we couldn't fix in time.

I heavily hinted at it in my release post: the VEGAS team has done amazing progress.

Believe us, we want to fix every bug. Unfortuntely, this sounds easier than done.

fr0sty, I know, and you're right. Still feels good to cry or let off some steam from time to time.

@Mindmatter please don't let this become an attitude nor a regularity. We value constructive criticism a lot more. This is why we have this in our Community rules:

[...] Angry posts written to blow of steam will be deleted. Members of the community who write such posts will be warned. [...]

A little bit of friction – within scope – is a good thing. This is why I'm not deleting your post.

Just know that we care and we are giving 120% every day to create a better software. Hopefully, in the future we can gain your trust back.

Have a nice day. 🙂

fr0sty wrote on 8/30/2018, 12:36 PM

I too will test your project, please send me a link. I have gigabit fiber so I should be able to download and test it quickly.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/30/2018, 12:36 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/30/2018, 2:32 PM

 

Wolfgang, thanks for the offer, I'm uploading the project. It'll take a while, it's 30gigs.

Well that is a lot. Please send me a link when the upload is finished - what may take some time very likely.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

j-v wrote on 8/30/2018, 4:15 PM

@ Mindmatter,

if you can upload your Project and are willing to share it, I am also prepared to download it and test it here. Even if I think that there may be Limits in Terms of data amount Maybe.

I cannot wait you give us the link so we can share or deny your complaints.
Vegas Pro 16 is behaving very good on my laptop with I7-7700, Geforce 1050
and desktop with I7-7700, Intell 630 plus Nvidia 1050
both with 16MB RAM, Windows 10 latest updates and SSD for C:\ with the programs on partition and render-to on other partition.

met vriendelijke groet
Marten

Camera : Pan X900, GoPro Hero7 Hero Black, DJI Osmo Pocket, Samsung Galaxy A8
Desktop :MB Gigabyte Z390M, W11 home version 24H2, i7 9700 4.7Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1660 Ti with driver
566.14 Studiodriver and Intel HD graphics 630 with driver 31.0.101.2130
Laptop  :Asus ROG Str G712L, W11 home version 23H2, CPU i7-10875H, 16 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 with Studiodriver 576.02 and Intel UHD Graphics 630 with driver 31.0.101.2130
Vegas software: VP 10 to 22 and VMS(pl) 10,12 to 17.
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

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