rendering older media for contemporary applications

Queenie wrote on 10/12/2021, 5:49 PM

Hi, I shot a bunch of video on mini DVs between 2001-2007 using a Sony Digital Video Camera Recorder (model DCR-TRV17). They were transferred onto my Windows PC as AVI files.  I began the first phase of editing in 2008 with Sony Vegas Pro 8.0, rendering them as AVIs with the following modified “NTSC DV” template:

  • Audio:  32,000 Hz, 12 Bit, Stereo
  • Video:  29.97 fps, 720 X 480
  • Pixel Aspect Ratio:  0.909
  • NTSC DV video files compatible with Sony Video Capture
  • Video rendering quality:  Best
  • In the “Video” tab,  the settings were changed from 48 hz (16 bit) to 32 hz (12 bit) to match the camcorder setting.

In these first renders, I have noticed a big discrepancy in the volume between the source AVIs and the rendered AVIs, with the rendered clips being much more muted.

I am now re-visiting this project & am using Sony Vegas Pro 14.0 (upgraded in 2017) on a Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit PC.  My goal is to render them as MP4s and/or AVIs for Internet uploads (website, YouTube, etc.), with maximum clarity (video and audio).  I have watched many YouTube tutorial videos on the supposed best “Render As” options, but have yet to find the winning combo.  Several tutorials recommended the following modified Sony AVC/MVC template (used for creating the highest quality 16:9 file suitable for uploading to Internet sites):

  • Audio:  128 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 32 Bit, Stereo, AAC
  • Video:  59.940 fps, 1920x1080 Progressive, YUV, 16 Mbps
  • Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.000
  • Video rendering quality:  Best

In Properties:

  • Deinterlace method:  None
  • Resample mode:  Disabled
  • “Adjust source media to better match project or render settings”:  Unchecked

The few videos I rendered with these settings are very pixelated, and there is an audible buzz.

I am hoping that someone here has had great success rendering older media for contemporary applications.  Any suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  Many thanks!

Comments

EricLNZ wrote on 10/12/2021, 7:36 PM

Your original avi files are most likely interlaced BFF so you need to deinterlace. Not deinterlacing will give you combing with movement.

Musicvid wrote on 10/12/2021, 7:51 PM

I'm sure this isn't the answer you want to hear, but ou won't gain anything by upscaling your SD source to 1080 60p. Be wary of internet alchemists and kahunas.

Your audio should all be 48Khz just for the sake of uniformity.

Your post indicates your DAR is 4:3. Your closest standard template is 640x480 with slight letterbox. A custom (exact) resolution would be 654x480.

So start with a very light Sharpen filter (0.100), the MainConcept AVC Internet 480p template, with a higher bitrate as shown, and you will have a "contemporary," internet-capable product with "maximum clarity," and understand that old DV tapes are what they are -- mediocre quality. Your teevee will do a better job of upscaling the viewed image than software, and that's a tested result.

You can also try it in Handbrake, which has a better decomb algorithm.

 

Queenie wrote on 10/12/2021, 8:20 PM

Thank you to EricLNZ and Musicvid for your replies--much appreciated! I look forward to testing out your suggestions...

Queenie wrote on 10/19/2021, 10:49 AM

Dear EricLNZ and Musicvid, I have finally had some time to experiment with rendering my old AVI files to MP4s using the recommendations you both suggested. It has made a big difference. They're much improved, so thank you! I have attached screenshots of the "Project Properties" for these videos, as well as the rendering template I used, which is a modified and re-named "Internet 480p 4:3" template. Look good to you? Please let me know if you have any further recommendations. Thanks again!

Musicvid wrote on 10/19/2021, 3:39 PM

Please let me know if you have any further recommendations. 

You may get sharper results by setting the Deinterlace Method to "Interpolate" in Project Properties.

@Queenie

EricLNZ wrote on 10/19/2021, 4:32 PM

You may get sharper results by setting the Deinterlace Method to "Interpolate" in Project Properties.

+1

Also the average video bitrate of 2,000,000 bps is considerably lower than what I'd use. Try rendering a test to see if a higher bitrate gives any noticeable difference. I'd try doubling the max and average.

 

fifonik wrote on 10/19/2021, 5:27 PM

I'd render with free Voukoder (CRF 21 or similar) instead of the Mainconcept AVC encoder.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 5700X, RAM: G'Skill 32 GB DDR4@3200, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22

Author of FFMetrics and FFBitrateViewer

Queenie wrote on 10/19/2021, 8:05 PM

Dear Musicvid and EricLNZ, Thanks again for your prompt replies--much appreciated! I tried switching the "Deinterlace Method" from "Blend fields" to "Interpolate fields" in Project Properties, but my test video became more pixelated. I also tried raising the video bitrate to 10,000,000 maximum bps & 4,000,000 average bps, but didn't notice any real difference (except for an increased file size from 24.3 to 47.1 MB).

And fifonik, thank you for weighing in...

wwaag wrote on 10/19/2021, 10:12 PM

@Queenie

IMHO, the key to obtaining decent results for upload to YT or Vimeo is de-interlacing. When you de-interlace without doubling the frame rate, you are throwing away half of the temporal information in your media. Unfortunately, Vegas does not support frame doubling. Arguably, the best de-interlacer which supports frame doubling for such material is QTGMC, which is open-source and requires the use of Avisynth. Here are a couple of examples of the techniques that I have used. The first is an example of some Hi-8 footage and the second is an example of some DV footage with some stills animation.

https://vimeo.com/414645512

In both cases, they were first de-interlaced using QTGMC using frame doubling to 60P and then up-rezzed to 1280 x 720 using the Lanczos4 resizer. The resulting media files were then imported into Vegas for the addition of the blurred background and final render.

HappyOtterScripts https://tools4vegas.com/ supports such Avisynth processing, but is a paid app. Or you can spend some time and learn their use since they are open-source and freely available. If you're interested in trying such techniques on your own, the best source of help is the restoration sub-forum on VideoHelp. Here's the link. https://forum.videohelp.com/forums/41-Restoration Good luck.

 

 

Last changed by wwaag on 10/19/2021, 10:14 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia RTX4070 graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

EricLNZ wrote on 10/19/2021, 10:33 PM

Handbrake will also do frame doubling. I use it regularly to convert 50i to 50p. But you need to have the Filters/Deinterlace/Preset on BOB otherwise instead of different frames from the fields you get one field duplicated. Thanks to @Musicvid for helping me with this a few years ago.

wwaag wrote on 10/20/2021, 12:50 AM

Here's another example of de-interlacing using some of the advanced features of QTGMC for some extremely demanding footage--a B25 engine start.

https://vimeo.com/636837831/df988945aa

Last changed by wwaag on 10/20/2021, 10:02 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia RTX4070 graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Dexcon wrote on 10/20/2021, 12:56 AM

@wwaag  ... unfortunately, the link goes to a 'Sorry, we couldn't find that page' on Vimeo's website.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

matthias-krutz wrote on 10/20/2021, 2:26 AM

For deinterlacing my PAL videos inserted in a progessive double PAL project, I use the "Smart Adaptive (GPU only)" method. This gives the best results. In particular, video stabilization at the event level works best this way. However, so that VEGAS does not hang, it is absolutly necessary to set Dynamic RAM Preview max. to 0 MB. This is at least the case with my AMD cards. It is not necessary with other deinterlace methods.

Desktop: Ryzen R7 2700, RAM 32 GB, X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, Radeon RX 5700 8GB, Win10 2004

Laptop: T420, W10, i5-2520M 4GB, SSD, HD Graphics 3000

VEGAS Pro 14-18, Movie Studio 12 Platinum, Vegasaur, HOS, HitfilmPro

3POINT wrote on 10/20/2021, 4:16 AM

For deinterlacing my PAL videos inserted in a progessive double PAL project, I use the "Smart Adaptive (GPU only)" method. This gives the best results. In particular, video stabilization at the event level works best this way. However, so that VEGAS does not hang, it is absolutly necessary to set Dynamic RAM Preview max. to 0 MB. This is at least the case with my AMD cards. It is not necessary with other deinterlace methods.

+1 Only with me no need to set DR Preview to 0 MB. I'm using a project setting of 1080p50 for older HDV (1080i50) footage, also with Smart Adaptive deinterlacing. Also with this setting it is possible to get great stabilisation results from interlaced footage with the Mercalli plugin.

jetdv wrote on 10/20/2021, 9:38 AM
I am now re-visiting this project & am using Sony Vegas Pro 14.0

FYI, no such product exists. VEGAS Pro 14 was released by Magix.

wwaag wrote on 10/20/2021, 10:13 AM

@Dexcon

Thanks. Here's the corrected link. https://vimeo.com/636837831/df988945aa

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia RTX4070 graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Queenie wrote on 10/20/2021, 10:28 AM

Thanks to all!

 

rraud wrote on 10/20/2021, 1:45 PM

If the audio 'buzz' is embedded in the media file, try one of the usual suspect noise reduction plug-ins or stand-alone apps.
'Buzz' is a generalized term with different meanings to different folks. A 'buzz' to audio folks is usually equated to electro-magnetic type interference. OTOH, non-audio folks often confuse it with a 50/60 Hz hum (typical of a AC ground loop) which is dealt with differently.

Queenie wrote on 10/20/2021, 4:15 PM

Dear rraud, I just listened to the original source AVI file of this particular clip through headphones. Perhaps it is more of a hum, and it is intermittent. It was shot in Sofia, Bulgaria, where the standard voltage is 230 V, and the frequency is 50 Hz. (I used a voltage converter with my equipment in the larger cities and saved my batteries for work in the villages.) In the first render (another AVI), done in 2008 with Sony Vegas Pro 8.0, the hum is gone, but it is much more muted, and the highs & lows are very flat. This most recent render is an MP4, which I have uploaded to YouTube via this link:

I would be most grateful if you could take a listen. Perhaps you could tell if this "buzz" is "electro-magnetic interference" or a "AC ground loop hum". Then, of course, the next question is: What can I do, if anything, to fix it?! (Simple, detailed instructions and/or screenshots work best for me and would be most appreciated.) Again, thanks to all in advance!

ALO wrote on 10/20/2021, 5:27 PM

Then, of course, the next question is: What can I do, if anything, to fix it?! (Simple, detailed instructions and/or screenshots work best for me and would be most appreciated.) Again, thanks to all in advance!

If this was shot using an early 2000's consumer camcorder, I'd say you got good audio -- declare victory and go home. It sounds fine to me. There are expensive tools you could employ to try to tweak it (ie, iZotope RX or similar) but I'm not sure anyone would hear a big difference. Try listening to this on a variety of devices and see if that affects how you perceive it.

Queenie wrote on 10/20/2021, 5:39 PM

All my video was shot with a Sony Digital Video Camera Recorder (model DCR-TRV17), purchased in June 2001 & top-notch back then... Thanks for your feedback, ALO!

Dexcon wrote on 10/20/2021, 5:53 PM

... if this "buzz" is "electro-magnetic interference" or a "AC ground loop hum". 

The following image is a spectrogram view of the audio track (contrast/brightness/etc lifted to improve visibility of the frequencies):

The highlighted section at the bottom frequencies shows that there are changing in volume very low frequencies that could be causing the problem you are hearing. I think that it will be very easy to eliminate those frequencies by using the Track EQ FX in the track header and, with the Low Shelf setting, set the frequency field to 250 Hz (or what best suits while listening to the audio), the Gain to the minimum setting -Inf, and the Rolloff to the max setting of 24.

The blue in the Track FX window shows that with these settings there is a steep roll off and the bottom edge of the blue shows the frequencies that are eliminated. Of course, adjusting all three settings to fine tune is recommended

I hope that the above helps.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

rraud wrote on 10/21/2021, 10:07 AM

Aside from some infrasonic content (which is typically inaudible), I do not hear any objectionable hum, but as @Dexcon suggested, a high-pass filter can be applied... A low-pass filter could be applied as well since there is little frequency content above 8kHz or so.

Queenie wrote on 10/21/2021, 11:21 AM

Thank you, Dexcon and rraud. Looking forward to experimenting...