V16 - Permanent problem with dynamic ram in rendering

mjry wrote on 12/19/2018, 2:30 AM

Hello, the same issue here, but for me only with Smart adaptive deinterlace method enabled. I have AMD Radeon
RX 580. BTW is there any reason not to set DRAM buffer to 0 before rendering automatically by Vegas?

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 2:47 AM

This "solution" is not the solution. It's only a workaround, which sometimes works. Sometimes not.

I've done more projects, where set DRAM preview to 0 did not help (but hugely slowed render).

But completely disable timeline GPU acceleration helped. Doing CPU only renders eliminated my rendering problems, while that DRAM preview was definitely not zero.

See an example:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-renders-random-frames-incorrectly--113883/

So what I want to tell is that the problem is not DRAM preview, it is something in timeline acceleration.

I can render a "problem project" with GPU OFF (I mean timeline acceleration) and DRAM preview set to anything fine.

But the "problem project" is impossible to render without glitches with GPU ON regardless what I set up in DRAM preview, including zero.

This problem appears for me on 2 completely different machines, i5 5200U + intel HD graphics and AMD Ryzen 5 1600 + R9 380.

mjry wrote on 12/19/2018, 3:32 AM

Ok, I have now 32 GB RAM and during video editing I usually set 4096 DRAM. Timeline editing is pretty smooth with no glitches with my setup and media (Sony XAVC material from Sony A7 series cameras, GPU Radeon 580 4GB, i7-8700, W10). But I think there is no need of DRAM while rendering, so why not to release the memory automatically and after rendering set DRAM again?

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 3:47 AM

But I think there is no need of DRAM while rendering,

In ancient versions of Vegas DRAM preview was used to temporarily store prerendered material. Say 2 seconds of video, full of effects.... I think, this is still true, but Vegas may use some of these buffers internally. I notice dramatic rendering slowdowns, if I set DRAM preview to zero, and that includes CPU render too. I have the default 200MB, and with GPU off, if I set DRAM preview to zero, at least doubles the time that takes to render.

So I think instead of implementing such an automatism that sets this value before render (it would also automatically clear your prerenders), it would be better the related bugs be fixed.

pierre-k wrote on 12/19/2018, 6:03 AM

So I think instead of implementing such an automatism that sets this value before render (it would also automatically clear your prerenders), it would be better the related bugs be fixed.

This problem has existed for 10 years. The Vegas team probably can not fix this bug.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 6:30 AM

So then do nothing about it?

I don't think so. Whether they find the bug or not is up to the dev team, and their resource management. That's based on the customers whishlist. If we want more bells and whistles, and the marketing management thinks they can sell more licences with new bells and whistles, they'll be working on those. If we ask for a product which is just more reliable and has less problems, they'll be working more on that. At least I think so.

Again: set DRAM prev. to zero only decreases the chance to be hit by this bug. Does not surely eliminate. I have more projects where GPU assisted render fails, and I don't talk about encoding, but timeline acceleration: whatever value DRAM prev. is set to including zero. And it's hardware, thus driver independent.

If the bug appears, the only dead sure method is to completely omit GPU. There's a reason if something is wrong the first advice is that turn off GPU...

I still hope Magix can find the problem and come up with an update, or upgrade that fixes it. But for that a reasonably high number of people has to ask for it. So we have to vote, if that's something really has to be looked into, or it's just a point in the known issues list forever.

OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2018, 7:20 AM

@klt The preset of 200 works fine here, during editing as well as during rendering and that is with GPU acceleration on at all times.

The problem why they can’t fix it is that it affects only certain systems and circumstances but not everyone. I would not like at all the so called fix of “let Vegas set the value to 0” because that would affect me and my perfectly fine system.

j-v wrote on 12/19/2018, 7:36 AM

+1

I'm a long time user, never had any problems with it and I think it works as designed many years ago.
Mostly it goes wrong with people from which the used hardware is not good or not uptodate to get a decent preview and than are using the Dynamiic RAM Preview max for a goal it's not intended for.
Afaik it is only for exact showing an effect or transition a.s.o. during 1 or 2 seconds. For longer times there are other options.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 7:36 AM

it affects only certain systems and circumstances but not everyone

@OldSmoke: Its surely not the system, but the circumstances. A project failing on my desktop also fails on my laptop, which so much different in every aspect. Different GPU, different CPU, different RAM. Sometimes I have very straightforward projects, 3..4 videotracks, couple audiotracks and color changing effects such as RGB curve, color corrector, etc.. nothing more. Then GPU works fine here too. The problem tend to start on more complex porjects, having 12..16 videotracks, including 3-4 compositing parents, some of them empty, just control tracks used for parent motion for its child tracks. Some are masking tracks, containing a mask. And each parent has 3..5 children.

Such a "complex" project fails with high probability with GPU on.

walter-i. wrote on 12/19/2018, 8:00 AM

@klt The preset of 200 works fine here, during editing as well as during rendering and that is with GPU acceleration on at all times.

The problem why they can’t fix it is that it affects only certain systems and circumstances but not everyone. I would not like at all the so called fix of “let Vegas set the value to 0” because that would affect me and my perfectly fine system.

+1
Walter

OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2018, 8:12 AM

it affects only certain systems and circumstances but not everyone

@OldSmoke: Its surely not the system, but the circumstances. A project failing on my desktop also fails on my laptop, which so much different in every aspect. Different GPU, different CPU, different RAM. Sometimes I have very straightforward projects, 3..4 videotracks, couple audiotracks and color changing effects such as RGB curve, color corrector, etc.. nothing more. Then GPU works fine here too. The problem tend to start on more complex porjects, having 12..16 videotracks, including 3-4 compositing parents, some of them empty, just control tracks used for parent motion for its child tracks. Some are masking tracks, containing a mask. And each parent has 3..5 children.

Such a "complex" project fails with high probability with GPU on.

@klt I do admit that my project are certainly simpler. The most complex would involve a 6 camera multicam with 8 audio tracks, two compositing, plenty of color correction including color curves, transitions, stabilization and certainly Neatvideo. However, never a third party plugin like NB or BCC and so on. I even don't use Mercalli 4 plugin but rather use the standalone version.

That said, if your projects are that complicated, you must have an extremely well build system; I wouldn't attempt it otherwise. To say it's not your hardware needs some proof and saying that it fails on your laptop too isn't one of it.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 8:31 AM

Thanks God, not all my projects are so complex.

But when it happens:

Both machines do render fine without GPU, of course it takes more time for the weaker to finish.

Both machines finish the render succesfully within a reasonable time when GPU is on. Of course the weaker takes more time...

Both machines show very very similar glitches, when GPU is on. I'd say the glitches are the same...

The 2 machines are different age, different models, different CPU vendor, the common between them are only Windows and Vegas. Sorry, that indicates to me that the problem is not the hardware. 😞

Oh, and I use only stock Vegas effects.

j-v wrote on 12/19/2018, 9:22 AM

Both machines do render fine without GPU,

What do you mean by this, there is more than 1 option to use the GPU during rendering and when you have a good system there is more than 1 GPU for those uses.

OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2018, 9:37 AM

The 2 machines are different age, different models, different CPU vendor, the common between them are only Windows and Vegas. Sorry, that indicates to me that the problem is not the hardware. 😞

@klt Nor is it proof that it is the software as so many others have no problem with it, including myself.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 9:39 AM

I mean timeline acceleration. What you can control on preferences/video tab.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 9:43 AM

as so many others have no problem with it, including myself.

Because you don't do anything which would trigger the bug, doesn't mean it's not there.

So if it doesn't hit you, you're the lucky 😉

Would you like to test render one of my failing projects on your system?

j-v wrote on 12/19/2018, 10:07 AM

I mean timeline acceleration. What you can control on preferences/video tab.

Without that option anabled there might be no problem rendering and only for previewing on a too weak processor.
When you disable that GPU for hardware acceleration than only some added OFX FX's has to be made by the processor.That's all, but can be a problem when that processor is not strong ( and fast) enough.

OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2018, 12:11 PM

as so many others have no problem with it, including myself.

Because you don't do anything which would trigger the bug, doesn't mean it's not there.

So if it doesn't hit you, you're the lucky 😉

Would you like to test render one of my failing projects on your system?

Sure! But also tell us what your hardware is like on both systems.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 1:08 PM

@OldSmoke

Thanks. Tomorrow I'm going to prepare and upload it.

The hardwares are

desktop:

AMD Ryzen 5 1600, 16GB RAM (dual channel 2400 MHz)

Videocard: Radeon R9 380 2GB

laptop:

i5 5200u, 8GB RAM (1600MHz single channel)

Video: integrated HD5500

walter-i. wrote on 12/19/2018, 1:56 PM

Would be nice, if you would enter this information in your profile - then such questions would be unnecessary - also in other cases.

klt wrote on 12/19/2018, 3:00 PM

Thanks Walter, I updated my profile.

Musicvid wrote on 12/19/2018, 10:32 PM

Start Here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

Note to fellow forum users:

Start Here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

klt wrote on 12/20/2018, 3:44 PM

OK, I have now my "failing" project.

I rendered it using Sony AVC fullhd 25p template, that came with Vegas. Everything reset to defaults.

Here are the results:

Laptop render (i5 5200u intel HD5500 graphics) GPU enabled:

DRAM preview set to 200, render time: 07:10 (minutes:seconds) -->glitches are there

DRAM preview set to 0, render time: 10:36 -->less glitches (in fact only one I could notice, still one more than expected...)

GPU disabled, rendering via same template:

DRAM preview set to 200, render time: 14:16 ---> perfect render, no glitch

DRAM preview set to 0, render time: 26:53 --> perfect render, no glitch. CPU usage was significantly lower, way below 100% during the whole render.

On the desktop (Ryzen 5 1600, Radeon R9 380 graphics) GPU enabled:

DRAM preview set to 200, render time: 01:43 -->glitches are there

DRAM preview set to 0, render time: 03:56 -->less glitches

Now the GPU disabled renders on the Ryzen:

DRAM preview set to 200, render time: 03:53 --> perfect render, no glitch

DRAM preview set to 0, render time: 14:48 --> also perfect render, CPU usage way below 100%, barely 20% in average here.

I'll upload the glitchy renders to youtube later. (Update: uploaded the glitchy renders)

And one interesting addition that I need to dig more into:

seems I can render the "failing" project with GPU acceleration enabled, DRP set to non zero value, to yuv or uncompressed glitchfree. If I try to render to Magix intermediate (whatever builtin template) the glitches will be there. MAGIX AVC shows same type of glitches.

So I'm convinced, that blindly set DRAM preview to zero will highly impact rendering performance, while it does not help for sure in all cases.