Vegas 15 - Cant "truly" process 10bit VFW CODECs???

cliff_622 wrote on 1/7/2018, 3:58 PM

So, I have been reading allot of talk about Vegas NOT being able to process "true" 10bit color into VFW (Video For Windows) CODECs.

Is this true? 10bit CODECs like HQX are actually locked down into 8bit?

I'm guessing that MAGIX ProRes is NOT a "VFW" CODEC and that Vegas CAN decode and code video in true 10bit depth? (along with XAVC Intra) Or,...does Vegas actually process these two 10bit CODECs using an actual 8bit engine? (yikes,..I hope not)

If this is true,...where does the fault exist? Is it VFW itself or something that Vegas has inside that limits itself to only 8bit?

Would love to get some final clarification from somebody with Vegas and put these questions to rest.

Comments

Marco. wrote on 1/7/2018, 4:15 PM

It isn't news Vegas Pro can't. The only VfW codecs capable of preserving 10 bit color depth in Vegas Pro is CineForm and Sony YUV (which is better known as "V210").

cliff_622 wrote on 1/7/2018, 5:53 PM

Is the MAGIX ProRes CODEC a VFW codec? I'm guessing the XAVC-L is not either. Both of these "should" be reall 10bit processing? AVID DnX is also usable in Vegas. Again, don't know if it is VFW or not. It does "seem" to allow a 12bit option. And,...after you render and do a Media Info on it, it "claims" to be a 12bit file.

Hmmm....mysterious.

Marco. wrote on 1/7/2018, 5:54 PM

Both are not VfW and both are capable of 10 bit reading. You just need to use a float point project then to ensure full bit depth will be processed.

Musicvid wrote on 1/7/2018, 6:45 PM

There is nothing magical about vfw codecs. They started to be replaced by directshow in Windows 95b iirc. Interframe compression is almost nonexistent.

VFW are Windows codecs. Prores and the .mov formats you mentioned are Apple.

cliff_622 wrote on 1/7/2018, 7:16 PM

CineForm has the option in Vegas to save in .MOV and AVI wrappers. I'm gussing that the .AVI container has no bearing on the bit depth of the CODEC allowed inside of it?

So to sum up:

AVID DnX is not VFW. = 10bit yes

MAGIX ProRes is not VFW = 10bit yes

Cineform is not VFW = 10bit yes. (either in .mov or .avi wrappers)

Sony XAVC-L is not VFW = 10bit yes.

Grass Valley HQX is VFW = 10bit NO!.

These are the most common 10bit CODECS that I have used in the past.

Sorry for the confusion folks. Never knew VFW had an 8bit problem before.

Marco. wrote on 1/7/2018, 7:26 PM

Avid DNxHD is either VfW or Quicktime (MXF not supported in Vegas Pro): No 10 bit.

Grass Valley HQX is either VfW or Quicktime (MXF not supported in Vegas Pro): No 10 bit.

CineForm wrapped in MOV: No 10 bit (AVI only).

For 10 bit reading in Vegas Pro 15 use:
- V210 (Sony YUV 10 bit)
- CineForm AVI
- ProRes
- XAVC

cliff_622 wrote on 1/7/2018, 8:39 PM

Interesting....Avid DNX-HR does have an .mov option for "high quality 12bit". When rendered out, the file DOES identify itself as 12bit inside MediaInfo. This could be a metadata lie I suppose. The CODEC could be 12bit but Vegas could be feeding it 8 bit.

Marco. wrote on 1/8/2018, 3:02 AM

Yes and no. Even if your input and your output is technical 10 bit this does not mean your video's color depth has been read as 10 bit in Vegas Pro. You would need to deeply analyze the video's color – what we did for such VfW and Quicktime files.
You can import 10 bit DNxHD and even render to technical 10 bit DNxHD in/from Vegas Pro but it won't read all 10 bit color information from such files, the processing pipeline would be fed with 8 bit color information only. It would be same if you did input 8 bit video.

cliff_622 wrote on 1/8/2018, 7:38 AM

Thank you for this information!! So Vegas in these situations dumps those 2 bits per channel and decodes and codes down to 8. Wow. Honestly, this is something that Vegas needs to publish more clearly in the software. A warning dialog box somewhere would be the proper and honest thing to do. I have shot many DNX files in my Atomos recorder but never knowing Vegas was doing this. (luckily most were 8bit capture anyway but some were true 10bit)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/8/2018, 6:06 PM

Well, we have tested and published that long time ago in the German Videotreffpunkt what Marco has summarized here. I am sure that we have mentioned that earlier here too, but I agree that it should be pointed out in a better way.

The situation became better when native ProRes Support was incorporated in Vegas. My first GH4 + Shogun footage had to be converted from ProRes to Cineform to edit it in Vegad as 10bit.

Do not use DNxHD/HR in your recorder - beside the fact that this is decoded in Vegas as 8bit only, playback performance is weaker compared to ProRes.

For XAVC it is XAVC-I that is decoded as 10bit.

The internal recorded 10bit footage of the EVA1 and GH5 are decoded as 10bit too, if you use the so4 decoder (beside some recommendations to disable this decoder here in the forum).