Wavy Lines When Downscaling from HD to SD (Vegas Pro 17, build 321)

alderny wrote on 11/4/2019, 2:33 AM

My source files are mts 1920x1080, 25fps, interlaced, upper field first. If after editing I render to mpg or mp4 in HD the results are fine. However, when I try to render for standard definition DVD using mpg at 720x576, 25fps, interlaced, upper field first, I get wavy lines where horizontal movement occurs. Please see the attached screenshot where the dancers are moving from left to right. I have even tried rendering to progressive, but that made no difference. Any ideas?

Used Vegas Pro since about version 14

Vegas Pro 22 (VP20 also installed)

Win 11 Home 64 bit, always updated

Intel Core i5 13400F, 10 cores/16 threads

32GB DDR5 RAM, 5200

Intel Arc A750 Graphics card

MSI Pro B760M-A Motherboard

Comments

EricLNZ wrote on 11/4/2019, 2:37 AM

It looks like combing but the bands are too big for 576 lines. You have something strange going on somewhere. Best let us have screen shots of your project and render settings.

alderny wrote on 11/4/2019, 3:52 AM

It looks like combing but the bands are too big for 576 lines.

Yes, it is not interlace tearing, as each wave covers a number of scan lines. Below are the screenshots you asked for:

Used Vegas Pro since about version 14

Vegas Pro 22 (VP20 also installed)

Win 11 Home 64 bit, always updated

Intel Core i5 13400F, 10 cores/16 threads

32GB DDR5 RAM, 5200

Intel Arc A750 Graphics card

MSI Pro B760M-A Motherboard

EricLNZ wrote on 11/4/2019, 4:01 AM

Project Properties - Deinterlace Method - None? Your source is interlaced. Try Interpolation.

3POINT wrote on 11/4/2019, 4:10 AM

Downscaling HD to SD is always very disappointing. But despite the upperfield of your HD, you should render your SD to lowerfield and not to upperfield. So do not change the original SD mpeg2 rendertemplate.

Also check your mediaplayer, I can't see those wobbling lines when I downscale 1080i to 576i at my place (WMP), also not with your settings.

Last changed by 3POINT on 11/4/2019, 4:21 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

3POINT, Theo Houben, Vegasuser since version 5 and co-founder and moderator of the Dutch Vegasforum https://www.vegas-videoforum.nl/index.php

Recware: DJI Osmo Pocket/Mavic Mini, GoproHero7Black, PanasonicFZ300/HCX909.

Software: Vegaspro365+Vegasaur, PowerDirector365, Davinci Resolve 20

Hardware: i910900k, 32GB, GTX2080super, 2x1920x1200 display

Playware: Samsung Qled QE65Q6FN

Former user wrote on 11/4/2019, 7:11 AM

Choosing a deinterlacing method should fix the problem.

alderny wrote on 11/4/2019, 9:25 AM

Solved - It was not the media player, nor whether the upper or lower fields come first. However, changing the Project Properties deinterlace method to either 'Interpolate fields' or 'Blend fields' corrected this problem.

Thank you to all who helped, and in particular to ERICLNZ who had the right answer. 🙂

Used Vegas Pro since about version 14

Vegas Pro 22 (VP20 also installed)

Win 11 Home 64 bit, always updated

Intel Core i5 13400F, 10 cores/16 threads

32GB DDR5 RAM, 5200

Intel Arc A750 Graphics card

MSI Pro B760M-A Motherboard

Musicvid wrote on 11/4/2019, 9:52 AM

Yes, one must select a deinterlace method when scaling.

Also, Render quality should be set to Best.

3POINT wrote on 11/4/2019, 11:24 PM

Thank you to all who helped, and in particular to ERICLNZ who had the right answer. 🙂

Did you change the deinterlace settings in the project settings to none, manually?

Seems that, in my opinion, an everlasting bug in Vegas is still present. Depending on how you start a new project, the deinterlace changes from default blend fields to none. When starting a new project by clicking the New empty project button, the deinterlace mode is blend fields. When starting a new project by selecting File/New the deinterlace method changes to none.

A Vegas booby trap, because this causes problems when rendering, as seen above, even when deinterlacing is not used, like rendering from interlaced to interlaced as Alderny did.

alderny wrote on 11/5/2019, 1:03 PM

Did you change the deinterlace settings in the project settings to none, manually?

Thanks, and no I didn't change the deinterlace settings in the project to none, nor have I had to check this setting before. I believe I started the new project by launching Vegas and adding clips, then saving it with a name.

Last changed by alderny on 11/6/2019, 12:28 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Used Vegas Pro since about version 14

Vegas Pro 22 (VP20 also installed)

Win 11 Home 64 bit, always updated

Intel Core i5 13400F, 10 cores/16 threads

32GB DDR5 RAM, 5200

Intel Arc A750 Graphics card

MSI Pro B760M-A Motherboard

max8 wrote on 11/5/2019, 1:11 PM

[...]even when deinterlacing is not used, like rendering from interlaced to interlaced as Alderny did.

If scaling is involved, the interlaced source has to be deinterlaced, then scaled, then again interlaced. Otherwise you get those "big wavy lines" @alderny mentioned. That effect is called aliasing and is the sign that no deinterlacing was applied prior to scaling like @EricLNZ noticed.

(Maybe a bit too picky, but perhaps this helps understanding...)

3POINT wrote on 11/5/2019, 3:20 PM

Did you change the deinterlace settings in the project settings to none, manually?

Thanks, and no I didn't change the deinterlace settings in the project to none, nor have I had to check this setting before. I belive I started the new project by launching Vegas and adding clips, then saving it with a name.

When launching Vegas, deinterlace method is also always default blend fields (when Vegas has not manually been forced to start new projects with other settings). It only suddenly changes to none when starting a new project by File/New.

I didn't know that for scaling first a deinterlace of the interlaced source is needed. This explains the unexpected bad result when Vegas deinterlace method is switched to none without having noticed.

EricLNZ wrote on 11/5/2019, 3:36 PM

As an aside I wonder why the Vegas default is Blend Fields and not Interpolate Fields. I've always interpolated and other consumer editors I've used or tried usually have this as the default. It preserves my original 50fps for smooth movement and avoids soft edges from the blending where there's slight movement.

3POINT wrote on 11/5/2019, 10:30 PM

I also preferred interpolate fields instead of blend fields. Since Vegas 14 or 15 a new deinterlace method option was introduced: smart adaptive, which I prefer now.

Last changed by 3POINT on 11/5/2019, 11:06 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

3POINT, Theo Houben, Vegasuser since version 5 and co-founder and moderator of the Dutch Vegasforum https://www.vegas-videoforum.nl/index.php

Recware: DJI Osmo Pocket/Mavic Mini, GoproHero7Black, PanasonicFZ300/HCX909.

Software: Vegaspro365+Vegasaur, PowerDirector365, Davinci Resolve 20

Hardware: i910900k, 32GB, GTX2080super, 2x1920x1200 display

Playware: Samsung Qled QE65Q6FN

alderny wrote on 11/6/2019, 12:27 AM

Since Vegas 14 or 15 a new deinterlace method option was introduced: smart adaptive, which I prefer now.

I tried to use the 'smart adaptive' deinterlace method, but on my PC it rendered very slowly then crashed Vegas. Perhaps my graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750) is not up to the task. Would a more powerful graphics card make much difference to how Vegas runs? My PC is based on Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.00GHz, with 8.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 799MHz. By the way, in the video preferences I too have had to set the 'dynamic RAM preview max' to zero, to prevent Vegas freezing during renders. Once this happens I have to use the Windows task manager to kill Vegas.

Used Vegas Pro since about version 14

Vegas Pro 22 (VP20 also installed)

Win 11 Home 64 bit, always updated

Intel Core i5 13400F, 10 cores/16 threads

32GB DDR5 RAM, 5200

Intel Arc A750 Graphics card

MSI Pro B760M-A Motherboard

3POINT wrote on 11/6/2019, 5:23 AM

Same problem at my almost similar as yours PC (i7 4770 and GTX650ti) when I try to downscale 1080i to 576i with smart adaptive deinterlace (GPU only). These neverending GPU problems with Vegas turned already my love for Vegas into hate (which I stated in this forum already months ago). I refuse to buy a new PC just for Vegas or keep searching for workarounds, because my other NLE (see my signature) works perfect up to 4k on that PC (rock stable, easier, much faster and sometimes even with better output quality).