Thank you. Well I thought this was the point of using "Limited" color space, which I'm already using (and also tested without using it). But in this case I always have a shift between Vegas and VLC, using Limited colorspace or not.

@TTTT Marcos thread on the change in VP18 is well worth a read … https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vp18-notes-on-the-8-bit-full-level-option--122749/

Thank you, interesting indeed, though I got a bit lost reading it.

But I think that I find my issue: I was rendering UHD with REC.709, just read somewhere that with UHD, REC.2020 should be used instead. <-- FALSE SOLUTION, I don't know why I this had solve the issue, I'm getting the issue again.

Looks lkie it solve the issues, but if someone can confirm this?


But: then, shouldn't Vegas adapt this when I set color space to default in rendering options and rendering UHD?

(False solution, I don't know why I thought the issue was solve, getting the issue again.)

Weird observation: Right now here is how I get the closest match between Vegas preview and VLC:

1. Set Project Properties > Pixel format to "32-bit floating point (video levels)".
2. Export using REC.2020 limited.
3. Set Project Properties > Pixel format to "8-bit point (full range)".

Images now looks very similar, thought a very tiny bit more colorful and lighter in VLC (but you really have to looks close to see it.)

Personally I use Media Player Classic Black Edition with MadVR and LAV filters. Slightly complex to setup at first but works well and even has MediaInfo built into it so you can quickly see if any given clip is full range, limited range, h.265, etc.

For uncompressed AVI does VLC handle it correctly?Are you feeding it full levels? (Personally I use MagicYUV for these purposes as it's mathematically lossless but somewhat more space efficient.)

If you edit in 8-bit full Vegas stretches limited range files to full range. This can be very handy if you have a mix of formats (including photographs which are full range). In Vegas 17 and older you had to do this by hand. In 32-bit video mode (or legacy 8-bit video mode) you also need to do this by hand. On output Vegas Pro 18 in 8-bit full mode should properly set full or video levels based on the output format. In VP 18 in 8-bit video or 32-bit video mode it just passes through data as it is, so if you have a mix of levels some may have black at 16 and some at 0. As with VP 17 and older forced you to do this by hand (computer to studio levels preset if you normalized all files to full range, for example).

I always use the default color space and color range when rendering. I doubt your issue lies here.

For uncompressed AVI does VLC handle it correctly?Are you feeding it full levels? (Personally I use MagicYUV for these purposes as it's mathematically lossless but somewhat more space efficient.)

SonyYUV you mean? I only see something named SonyYUV. Well, I want uncompressed.

Because you wrote this I tested:
Rendering from 8-bit full to REC.2020 Limited colospace and then checking VLC (compagered to Vegas):
- Uncompressed: Darker
- HEVC: Seems accurate

- Uncompressed > Reimported to Vegas (Much darker) > HEVC: Confirmed darker

(My usual workflow is to archive uncompressed but export them to HEVC.
 

No, I mean what I write. MagicYUV. It's a modern third party lossless codec that was worth the small cost for me.

I'm not really sure what your tests are but if you are judging renders in Vegas using 8-bit full they are compromised. 8-bit full is automatically adjusting levels of the files to full. If you want to see what the file actually looks like, try legacy 8-bit video.

HEVC renders should all be limited range I believe.

When I use Legacy 8-bit and render uncompressed, I still get a darker image in VLC than in Vegas. Just both look like brightness has been raised a bit, on both sides.

(I installed MPC-BE, I still need to find some focus-time to try MadVR and LAV.)

Personally I use Media Player Classic Black Edition with MadVR and LAV filters. Slightly complex to setup at first but works well and even has MediaInfo built into (...)

I have made the installation and configuration of MPC-BE+LAV+MadVR*.
Rendering looks much like in Vegas (single quick comparison for now).

Just one thing I would like to improve, now, in MPC if I display full screen image is correct. But if I'm not in full screen image is squeezed... there's probably a setting somewhere...

(* I skipped the subtitles and the hardware acceleration part for now.)

 

(* I skipped the subtitles and the hardware acceleration part for now.)

Actually, image is squeezed when not in full frame AND video has not started yet. (I tried various settings of LAV about it but this remains.) Slightly disturbing, but I guess it's not a major issue once you know it.

Did you try view/video frame/keep aspect ratio?

Previewing in Vegas Pro is often too heavy to run smoothly in my projects, so I very often do partial renders to check everything smoothly.

My goodness, what is wrong with a Timeline Prerender for previewing your rough cuts? I can always pop some quick dailies (HDCAM-EX or XAVC-S) on my network media server if I want the full big screen experience.

If you plan to eventually go into production, rather than a time-consuming hobby, the word is KISS.

 

My goodness, what is wrong with a Timeline Prerender for previewing your rough cuts? I can always pop some quick dailies (HDCAM-EX or XAVC-S) on my network media server if I want the full big screen experience.

If you plan to eventually go into production, rather than a time-consuming hobby, the word is KISS.

Nothing wrong, that's not what I meant.
Now, what's wrong in wanting to push "quality" of what I do as far as I can...

Did you try view/video frame/keep aspect ratio?

It is checked by default an I haven't changed it.

My goodness, what is wrong with a Timeline Prerender for previewing your rough cuts? I can always pop some quick dailies (HDCAM-EX or XAVC-S) on my network media server if I want the full big screen experience.

If you plan to eventually go into production, rather than a time-consuming hobby, the word is KISS.

Nothing wrong, that's not what I meant.
Now, what's wrong in wanting to push "quality" of what I do as far as I can...

Because "pushing" works only up to a point, and then there is absolutely no more gain to be had, only overkill from wasted bits and time and storage space, as taken in context of my last sentence. It appears those are not considerations for you at this time, but you may want to keep it handy in case you ever need to post-produce a big project under a deadline.

Yes, I know that quality has a cost, but so far I do do video (and other media) purely for creating (or enhancing) stuff that I like. I'm extremely rarely doing it for "clients", I have another (unrelated) job, and if I'm not satisfied with some project or feel like I can improve it or yet if some other priorities come in the way, I just postpone.
But I get your point.

Now, to come back to the original quote ... the single inclusion of Neat Video in 4K is already enough to make me want to render regularly.

As long as there is no one else waiting on your work, you are welcome to reinvent the wheel, although the ones we have are time tested and mother approved. I suggest that you use objectified tools (SSIM, PSNR, VMAF) to evaluate your results, because your eyes are only good enough to match your expectations; i.e., the placebo effect.

I'm aware of some placebo effect, trying to eliminate it when possible.
Would be interested in a link to the tools you are talking about because I get all kind of search results for them...

But I still think, when you know what you're looking for, what matters is what you see/hear in end result (though this, can be subject to interpretation and involve all kind of things and their opposite...)

Happy Otter Free Tools Library is a good place to start. There are three current Render Quality tools, with slightly different features. Welcome to the world of objectified testing!

https://tools4vegas.com/library/

@TTTT Fifonik has a very nice program also for testing render quality metrics … https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/ffmetrics-yet-another-program-for-quality-metrics-calculation--122246/

I have used similar ffmpeg tool and the HOS RQM tool for comparing rendered output, see table via my signature.

Player: I'm also using MPC-BE with LAV filters as system video player (MPC-HC is also a choice, it might be even better for someone as LAV filters are included).

Rendering: uncompressed is not good as you will have your drive as a bottleneck very soon. Use lossless codecs UT Video (free) or MagicYUV (checp) if you like pixel peeping. Or use Voukoder and render to mp4 using fast preset with CRF 18 or lower. In the last case you should not have any issues with incorrect color range selected by player.

You can measure quality metrics (PSNR/SSIM/VMAF) if you like, but I do not think you need to do this often after you found encoder that is good for you (x264 CPU is my choice for final render, GPU for drafts).