VProject: 8-bitpixel FullRange, 32-bitfloating Calculation Mode, ACES

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/1/2022, 5:01 AM


illustr. light spectrum

RGB color theory studies how light affects us human vision and comes to the additive R-G-B model. It has determined the max visual field and made thereout the well-known CIE1931 diagram. 
Yes, in the year of 1931. 
From this model there are 2 color spaces that normalize TV device: 
Rec709 till fullHD, in 1990; 
Rec2020 for UHD (4k and above), in 2012. 
illustr. CIE1931_TVspaces

Sure, since TV born it didn't lack on color spaces. 
But they died. 
The shortest died one is NTSC, perhaps you never heard it. 
Reason: no capture or display equipment can cover that much color gamut in 1953. 
illustr. NTSC-1953

When we talk about color, we can describe it diagrammatic, coordinated, or in cubic till the single color coding detail appears. 
Clear is, a color space/gamut needs certain "density" to support; if the construct too loose it collapses. 
illustr.abc color density


That's why Rec709 still having its longevity after more than 30 years. 
It is small but robust with 256-grayscale, meaning that the R-G-B primaries care and bear with 2^8 density unit respectively, or 8-bit color depth as profis jargon. 

The fixed primaries guarantee that no TV should diplay its color hue differently, and the frugal 8-bit depth offers more than 16 million colors. 
They are saved in YUV, not RGB which captures and beams for our eye. 
illustr. YUV space


YUV is video signal construction in its analog age but adopted to the digital world because of its flexible subsampling. 
The 8-bit 4:2:0 subsampling becomes a standardization required for TV bandwidth (broadcasting, receiving), therefore, treated as video "color space" - actually it's "how the signal clustered".

Amateur cameras simply use this standard for shooting and watching, kind of hobby with fun. 

Film industry prepares its source material through high-tech machines. 
And high-speed/bandwidth medium for subsampling/storing the signal in 4:2:2, 10-bit 4:2:2/4:4:4, Log or RAW. 
No doubt, such footage for post editing has rich and precise chroma, fine and delicate luma, wide highlight with details, or complete shooting informations. 
illustr. Log-curve vs Rec709-curve

 

In VP20b214, the 8-bit pixel format (full range) is the common mode for Rec709TV end production. 
It works natively with footage compatible to Rec709/sRGB primaries.
Not compatible footage needs camera-LUT. 
It can't avoid generating post artefacts, worse by amateur source and less by profi material. 
But that's all. 


If you do video for your daily caviar and want to go higher level, the 32-bit floating format (1.0 linear gamma) is the ultimate mode for Rec709TV end production. 
It works natively with footage compatible to Rec709/sRGB primaries. 
Not compatible footage needs camera-LUT and linear gamma lifting/adjusting. 

It makes amateur footage not better but reduces post artefacts. 
It takes all advantages of the profi material during editing. That's why commercial product is much better than ours, mostly. 
It requires a powerful computer. 
Its render is very slow, because the 32-bit floating to Rec709 encoding goes  CPU-only-computing. 

 

In VP20b214, the ACES/HDR10 modus (minimum luma-peak 1000Nits) is the advanced mode for HDR10 production. 
It works natively with footage compatible to Rec2020 primaries, at moment it's only HDR10 and HLG.

Not compatible footage must take an IDT (Input-Device-Transforming) - which including tone curve and primaries conversion - into ACES AP0/AP1 space for editing/grading. 
It requires max-power workstation and proper display equipment. 

illustr. HDR10preview in Rec2020 (my screen can't show properly) and ST2084 activated (my screen does it well) 

The output can be any format, because its render is actually an ODT - Output-Device-Transform. 

illustr. ODT for choose

 

Without proper display equipment, the ACES modus is very limited. 
Exempli gratia
ACES/sRGB mode can be taken for special purpose, like intermediate transforming without editing/grading; because the preview limitation prevents your judge vision for WCG footage. 
Others are nonsense. 

illustr. ACES/sRGB preview


Apropos, the difference between 32-bit floating project and ACES project: 

 

Thanks for reading. I'm training my Denglish. 

Last changed by Yelandkeil

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Comments

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/3/2022, 10:23 AM


I made an HDR-project trying to find out how good/bad the HLG-footage can be color-graded. 
Preview device is my HDR10 monitor - I don't own any HLG-display. 
Rendered format: Magix HEVC

You can download the original files with 4K Video Downloader on the end of the post, but I'd let you cherish the following discussions in advance.

They are really very enlightening.

Cheers.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 10:31 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 12:55 AM

Jump over! Issue managed.

My nerves have been near to a breakdown!

I waited and waited the whole night but my HDR10-upload/uploading doesn't show any HDR10-format/metadata.
I've tried Magix HEVC/AVC render, ProRes, ProRes to H264 through XMediaRecode adding metadata,

and direct upload within VEGAS which seems not capable doing it (error after rendering).
Attempted trying it in DaVinci who is more complicated than Chinese, no luck.

Would someone teach me how I get HDR10 uploaded to YTube?
Thanks a lot!

 

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 11:02 PM, changed a total of 6 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 1:48 AM

Jump over!

It seems no way even uploading normal video within VEGAS.

I must have done something wrong. Security E-mail already confirmed.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 10:34 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Musicvid wrote on 11/4/2022, 2:07 AM

Would someone teach me how I get HDR10 uploaded to YTube?

HDR10 is working here again in build 214. I upload in the normal manner, not from within Vegas.

On Youtube:

If MediaInfo doesn't say "PQ" something is not set correctly in Vegas.

 

 

Former user wrote on 11/4/2022, 3:10 AM

My nerves have been near to a breakdown!

I waited and waited the whole night but my HDR10-upload/uploading doesn't show any HDR10-format/metadata.
I've tried Magix HEVC/AVC render, ProRes, ProRes to H264 through XMediaRecode adding metadata,

It can take a full day for the HDR versions to encode if your YT channel is not popular, I'd probably wait 2 days before giving up on the encode. No, I have no idea why this delay exists, except the encodes are listed as being VP9.2 which isn't used for anything else.

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 3:41 AM

@Former user,
you mean after day 1 or 2 it will add HD-HDR10, 4k HDR10?

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 10:34 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 3:48 AM

Jump over!

@Musicvid, could you show me the upload in the normal manner, not from within Vegas by

Step1/illustr.1,

Step2/illustr.2...

I saw once "selections" (in YouTube-Studio?) but now I see nowhere any selection before I begin to upload.

Many thanks!

 

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 10:35 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 4:50 AM

@Musicvid, I'm not a gentleman.

I just have a cool look at your "either or both" and fancy how far you'll go.

In another discussion with @Wolfgang S., I know he's an Austrian but ask it then lead the conversation in German, to blockage naive arguers. He's also in some point confused.

So, a "32 bit Full Project" never needs a View Transform; it needs Input-LUT to transcode all the other "big" color spaces (footage) into the only Rec709/sRGB space for Rec709standard production.

An ACES/HDR10 project must have a View Transform; its "Media Profile/Properties" is called IDT in jargon.

Every footage must take the transforming of its gamma and primaries into the virtual/huge AP0/AP1-space for editing/grading - HDR10 and HLG are native because VEGAS already does the transform for them.

After editing you go ODT=Output-Device-Transform, that is to say, you must choose an HW dependent color space to render, e.g. HDR10, Rec2020, P3-DCI, Rec709...

The difference between a "32 bit Full Project" and an ACES project:

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/4/2022, 7:04 AM

In another discussion with @Wolfgang S., I know he's an Austrian but ask it then lead the conversation in German, to blockage naive arguers. He's also in some point confused.

I still do not think that I am confused. Why should I be that?

 

So, a "32 bit Full Project" never needs a View Transform; it needs Input-LUT to transcode all the other "big" color spaces (footage) into the only Rec709/sRGB space for Rec709standard production.

I disagree. A 32 bit floating point project DOES NOT need an input Lut in all cases. A 32 bit project is defined by the calculation method only. You mix that up with the color space and gamma transformation. For those transformations, the user can decide to apply an input LUT. But he can also decide, to use an ACES transformation what makes only sense in an 32 bit floating point calculation - to generate whatever he/she wants (what may be rec709 or rec2020 or whatever, both in terms of gamma and gamut.

An ACES/HDR10 project must have a View Transform; its "Media Profile/Properties" is called IDT in jargon.

An IDT is required for every color space transformation - regardless, if we do that in ACES or the Blackmagic Color space or the Grassvalley color space. Even if one does not define an idt on an event level (in Resolve one can do that also on the project level), a default should be used (where Vegas still has an issue).

Every footage must take the transforming of its gamma and primaries into the virtual/huge AP0/AP1-space for editing/grading - HDR10 and HLG are native because VEGAS already does the transform for them.

HDR10 and HLG have specific transformation or gamma functions - and are both in the color space of rec2020. They are not "native" compared to other gamma curves that we have in slog, vlog and so on - it is only another gamma function. The point is more that our HDR televisions have defined gamma and gamut funktions, for both SDR and HDR - and that is why we perform with out tools transformations to rec709 or HDR10, HLG or (not in Vegas) Dolby Digital.

The difference between a "32 bit Full Project" and an ACES project:

There is a difference only in the way, that an 32bit project (full range) can be either an ACES project or not. But if you wish to enable the ACES transformation, it will be in Vegas and most other serious tools a 32bit project always.

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 11/4/2022, 7:15 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 7:47 AM

😇😇

It seems I AM the naive one.
...and make confusions.

😥😥

 

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS wrote on 11/4/2022, 8:05 AM

This was an informative thread. I was never quite sure if disabling the view transform would fully disable ACES, so thanks for confirming that.

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 8:25 AM

 

Ooh, discussion is not confirmation. 😳😳

Why a 32bit (full range) project can be (changed into?) ACES project and a 32bit (video levels) project not?

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/4/2022, 12:39 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/4/2022, 10:31 AM

This was an informative thread. I was never quite sure if disabling the view transform would fully disable ACES, so thanks for confirming that.

If you use 32bit in the legal range (video levels), you disable ACES. I think, the only reason for that would be, if you have to produce in an broadcast environment, and wish to have a high quality calculation. 32bit floating point can be nice to avoid banding. But calculation time will be much longer, and if the quality improvement is really worth that - may depend on your footage.

But that is it. If you go for HDR, you will work with the 32bit floating point in the full range mode typically. And if you produce HDR, you will to for PQ or HLG - so, especially if you come from log or raw footage, you will need ACES for the desired transformation.

 

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 11:13 AM

Hi there, I changed the post title again to fit our profound discussions.

So, I try to declare once more even though I could be wrong.
All the 32-bit floating point format has nothing to do with ACES which needs a View Transform activated and opens its Master channel.
You can't say, a BIOS starts your computer into MS-Windows thus your computer has/is based on a DOS platform.

I'm pretty sure disabling the View Transform equals fully disabling ACES. 
No Master channel, no IDT/ODT possible. 
LUT necessary or not, another story. 

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Musicvid wrote on 11/4/2022, 11:23 AM

So, a "32 bit Full Project" never needs a View Transform; 

But then it won't render HDR10.

I must apologize to you for using the English double negative "not" in another post.

It was bad English grammar on my part, it has been corrected, and I can see that it was confusing.

 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 11:35 AM

@Musicvid, confusing is not the grammar.

A 32 bit full project - your habit accordingly - doesn't have a ACES-Master channel, how can it render HDR10?

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/4/2022, 11:51 AM

I'm pretty sure disabling the View Transform equals fully disabling ACES. 
No Master channel, no IDT/ODT possible. 
LUT necessary or not, another story. 

Sure, here you apply the 32bit calculation mode, and use the full range. No ACES, no transformation of gamma and gamut. And increased calculation time. Useful for 10 or 12 bit footage that must not be transformed, but where you wish to stick with 10bits or more.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/4/2022, 12:01 PM

But then it won't render HDR10.

If the output will be HDR, may depend on your input. Imagine, that you feed the project with either HLG footage (recorded by many cameras, but significant grading is not recommended here). Or that you feed the project with PQ footage (can be shoot by Canon cameras). Then the output would be HLG or PQ.
 

However, there are some (artificial) limitations in Vegas: the HDR templates will not accessable with such project settings, and you may end up without the typical HDR metadata required that typical HDR displays recognize the rendered footage as HDR. I understand here the intention to protect unexperienced users, but this is also a limitation for experienced users - and make more intransparent what happens really.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Musicvid wrote on 11/4/2022, 12:02 PM

@Yelandkeil I believe I answered your question with examples. That is really all I am able to contribute to the discussion; best of luck in your inquiry, and Congratulations on your progress!

Here again is my statement, hopefully corrected for proper English grammar (I am so ashamed!)

Unless both of the following conditions are met, I will not get a compliant HDR10 (ST2084 / 2086) render when using an HDR10 render template:

  • A View Transform must be selected in a 32 bit Full Project (not set to "Off")
  • A Media Profile must be selected in Media Properties (not set to "Default")

And here is my project and preview for compliant HDR10:

 

Would someone teach me how I get HDR10 uploaded to YTube?

HDR10 is working here again in build 214. I upload in the normal manner, not from within Vegas.

On Youtube:

If MediaInfo doesn't say "PQ" something is not set correctly in Vegas.

 

 

Musicvid wrote on 11/4/2022, 12:24 PM

Wolfgang, yes, of course I agree. I say the same thing.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/4/2022, 12:47 PM

Wolfgang, yes, of course I agree. I say the same thing.

I know. I wish I would find more time to test the actual build of Vegas Pro 20 in some more detail. But still sitting in the airport of Cologne.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/4/2022, 2:02 PM

@Former user, I suddenly see my Upload playing back in HDR10.

You're right, it comes automatically after 1-2 days. Thank you!

And you folks if have interest can download it to compare HLG/HDR10/Log-files.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 11/5/2022, 11:05 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/5/2022, 3:35 AM

32-bit calculation mode @Wolfgang S.

I like the name you created and planted it into my post title.

Cheers.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/5/2022, 6:20 AM

And here is my project and preview for compliant HDR10:

You use here the transformation to sRGB? Is that, because you use a sRGB monitor as preview monitor?

If you do so, you will not have a sound HDR preview at all. I use here the transformation for PQ 1000 nits, and set my Atomos SUMO to PQ

 

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems