Win10 + Vegas 18 + 32-bit floating point pixel and Curve Colors...

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 4:49 AM

I have a problem with Curve Colors plugin with 32-bit pixel set.

The brightness level of the same frame looks different every time I point to it.


I can eliminate this phenomenon in the preview when I reduce the quality from Best (Full) to Best (Half). Of course, the picture still flickers on the rendered movie, but I did not check if the rendering quality was reduced as well.(*)
Additionally, in the 32-bit mode the image reacts extremely strongly to any change in the curve, much stronger than in the 8-bit mode.
Changing to 8-bit pixel format eliminates all of the above problems.
(The plug-in language also matches the system language for some reason, not the Vegas language.)

How to cure it?
I would like to add that this happens in half of the projects (2 out of 4).

Edit: The same problem occurs in Vegas 19.
(*) - The problem, however, does not disappear, but with Best (Half) it occurs much less frequently.

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2022, 5:14 AM

How to cure it?

Pretty simple, really. Stop believing the internet, and don't use a 32 bit float project for 8 bit integer source video.

Also, your VFR media may be causing some issues. Stock solution if it is causing problems is to convert it first in Handbrake. Welcome to the forum.

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 8:11 AM

I don't use 32-bit precision because of the internet, just don't want to have problems using a chain of several plugins.

Using 8-bit is not a solution to the problem, it's a workaround :)

Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2022, 9:13 AM

I didn't say "because" of the internet; you have been fooled into alchemic thinking by misinformation you read on the internet or elsewhere.

8 bit media goes in an 8 bit project; anything else is asking for processing problems that are well documented here.

If you pour 8 gallons of water in a 32 gallon bucket, it is still 8 gallons.

The notion of processing effects in 32 bit space and then dithering down to 8 bit for production is an illusion, because doing so creates frequency domain noise in the lower two bits that more than negates any theoretical advantage with regard to precision. Only when you have 10 bit source is there any advantage. We've seen that rodeo.

Welcome to the peer support forum for Vegas Pro.

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2022, 9:47 AM

Does using curves in the Color Grading Panel work better than the curves Fx when in 32-bit mode?

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 10:12 AM

Does using curves in the Color Grading Panel work better than the curves Fx when in 32-bit mode?

Little. The clip does not flicker (at least in the preview).
But only part of the graph (far left side) works and covers the whole range.
Just do as in the screenshot to get a completely dark image.

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 10:13 AM

I have to check it out, because it probably shouldn't be like that.

For now, I checked the usefulness of 32-bits by adding the Contrast & Brightness plugin with the Brightness +1.0 parameter, and then the same with Brightness -1.0. I got the original back.
With 8-bit, this is not possible at all.
With 32-bit I can (almost) anything :)

Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2022, 10:22 AM

Suit yourself 😉

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2022, 10:37 AM

Does using curves in the Color Grading Panel work better than the curves Fx when in 32-bit mode?

Little. The clip does not flicker (at least in the preview).
But only part of the graph (far left side) works and covers the whole range.
Just do as in the screenshot to get a completely dark image.

I'm perplexed by this behavior. What type of media is this and can you share a sample? Are you using the color spaces in 32-bit mode (32-bit full)?

I don't see it myself. Here's 32-bit video (after a levels correction of studio to computer RGB done at the media level)

Here's 32-bit full with view transform off.

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 10:50 AM

My file is 13GB big :)
I'll try to find something smaller or cut out a part.

Have you tried with the Color Curves?

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2022, 12:14 PM

Can you just record a few seconds with the same settings (if it's from a camera)?

Here's 32-bit full, view transform off and color curves Fx on the event:

I prefer 32-bit video as it's more predictable. Generally though I use 8-bit full as my footage is 8-bit.

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 5:04 PM

Try this clip. It's recompressed in Vegas but the problem still persists. I am getting random image flickering.

And in version 18 and in version 19.

https://files.fm/u/e6hx9mh5j

(set Preview quality to Best(Full), compositing gamma must be set to 1.00 (Linear). With the setting 2.22 (Video), the error appears very rarely)

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/19/2022, 5:57 PM

1, that's not flickering, it's low light noise.

2, fake declaration: your clip has a brightness/contrast gradient.

The fist frame

And the last one

Solution:
Filter Brightness&Contrast->Automatic Contrast->take last frame as current referrence to calculate the B&C.
Then change to set for each frame independently and calculate the B&C.

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Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2022, 6:10 PM

For now, I checked the usefulness of 32-bits by adding the Contrast & Brightness plugin with the Brightness +1.0 parameter, and then the same with Brightness -1.0. I got the original back.

Of course not. Redundant stacking of levels filters reduces bit depth, always. You are creating an optical illusion, and your controlled testing will prove this. Many people prefer nice-sounding theories over demonstrable fact. The word scientists use is "confabulation." Carry on.

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 6:14 PM

1, that's not flickering, it's low light noise.

Google Photos massacred the quality, but the problem is clearly visible in 2 frames.

https://files.fm/u/c8dg7dfhd (6s i 12s)

rgr wrote on 5/19/2022, 6:23 PM

For now, I checked the usefulness of 32-bits by adding the Contrast & Brightness plugin with the Brightness +1.0 parameter, and then the same with Brightness -1.0. I got the original back.

Of course not. Redundant stacking of levels filters reduces bit depth, always. You are creating an optical illusion, and your controlled testing will prove this. Many people prefer nice-sounding theories over demonstrable fact. The word scientists use is "confabulation." Carry on.

Show me how you do something like that in 8-bits and I will switch immediately :)
And why on Waveform and Histogram after such reverse operations there is no difference?

Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2022, 7:25 PM

You are asking me to demonstrate something that is physically impossible? I'll leave that part to internet soothsayers.

But if you want to design a controlled testing environment using tools such as RMS regression, SSIM, and VMAF mediated by PSNR, we like that here. That's not a trivial suggestion, because my own tests could use updating.

Here is a picture that magnifies the frequency domain noise that populates the lower 2 bits when switching environments such as you propose. This does not even take into account the likelihood of collateral gamma shifts, dither artifacts and quantization noise in the spatial domain. The other artifacts you report may be due to your graphics drivers, but I'm really not interested in pursuing that because it is secondary.

By all means, keep exploring! Peace and learning.

;?)

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2022, 9:44 PM

I can replicate your flickering bug using a curves Fx starting on frame 203 in 32-bit video mode. It starts earlier in 32-bit full mode. 8-bit full is fine.

I'd submit it as a bug report to support.

Here's MediaInfo for the file:

General
Complete name                  : testVEGASbug.mp4
Format                         : MPEG-4
Format profile                 : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                       : mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size                      : 23.5 MiB
Duration                       : 11 s 867 ms
Overall bit rate mode          : Variable
Overall bit rate               : 16.6 Mb/s
Encoded date                   : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:14
Tagged date                    : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:14

Video
ID                             : 2
Format                         : AVC
Format/Info                    : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                 : High@L4.1
Format settings                : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC         : Yes
Format settings, Reference fra : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP           : M=4, N=15
Codec ID                       : avc1
Codec ID/Info                  : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                       : 11 s 867 ms
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 16.4 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate               : 32.0 Mb/s
Width                          : 1 920 pixels
Height                         : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 30.000 FPS
Standard                       : NTSC
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 8 bits
Scan type                      : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.263
Stream size                    : 23.2 MiB (98%)
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:20
Tagged date                    : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:20
Color range                    : Full
Color primaries                : BT.709
Transfer characteristics       : BT.709
Matrix coefficients            : BT.709
Codec configuration box        : avcC

Audio
ID                             : 1
Format                         : AAC LC
Format/Info                    : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                       : mp4a-40-2
Duration                       : 11 s 861 ms
Bit rate mode                  : Constant
Bit rate                       : 253 kb/s
Channel(s)                     : 2 channels
Channel layout                 : L R
Sampling rate                  : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                     : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode               : Lossy
Stream size                    : 366 KiB (2%)
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:14
Tagged date                    : UTC 2022-05-19 21:57:14

rgr wrote on 5/20/2022, 5:34 AM

I can replicate your flickering bug using a curves Fx starting on frame 203 in 32-bit video mode. It starts earlier in 32-bit full mode. 8-bit full is fine.

Thanks for your confirmation.
Have you had the same problem when using Color Gradient? I don't.