Yes, You Can Professionally Color Correct and Grade In Vegas

karma17 wrote on 2/11/2019, 5:22 AM

Ok, so this isn't a scientific test but all I can really do is trust my eyes at the end of the day. I keep hearing some people say that you can only get professional color correction and grading in Da Vinci Resolve and there's no discussion to it. And while I won't deny that Resolve has a dazzling array of features and nodes, more isn't always better. I don't deny that Resolve doesn't have a role to play. I'm just saying for most basic, uncomplicated situations, Vegas can do just as good of a job. But for me, even if I were to use Resolve, I would still do my editing in Vegas.

My test for this is to simply to run the same Log footage through Resolve and Vegas, apply some basic adjustments, then render out some test footage and ask people if they see any difference. And at the end of the day, aren't "people" the final judges?

Below are two clips. Original footage was S-Log3 /SGamut3.cine. I did apply the same S-Log to REC 709 LUT to both and kept the adjustments basic. Nothing fancy, just a fairly out-of-the-camera look. One was corrected in Vegas and the other in Resolve. In Vegas, I was in ACEScc. Do you see any startling differences?

Comments

Dexcon wrote on 2/11/2019, 6:07 AM

I cannot see any startling difference at all.

Some years ago on this forum on a VP v Resolve color grading comparison, one regular poster ( I thought it might have been Grazie but a forum search failed to locate the post) noted that the basic color grading tools in VP can achieve the same results as with Resolve. I suppose the main difference is ease of use.

Grazie wrote on 2/11/2019, 7:05 AM

@Dexcon - Nope, not moi . . . Never used Resolve.

OldSmoke wrote on 2/11/2019, 7:44 AM

Yes, the Vegas tools are sufficient and many users don’t even use all, like color balance and the other one I believe is called Channel Blend? However, their GUI needs desperately an update.

fr0sty wrote on 2/11/2019, 8:47 AM

Vegas' problem is that its color tools are spread out across many different plugins, so you pull up color corrector and it is lacking tools you can find under saturation adjust, etc... Vegas needs one "color lab" plugin that has it all, separated by tabs maybe, but all within one plugin, with a few more controls thrown in.

RogerS wrote on 2/11/2019, 8:58 AM

You can technically do a lot in Vegas, and I do. I do wish it had a shadows/highlights feature and semi-automated lens distortion correction. I wish you could place multiple eyedroppers in areas of the image to see the effects of your edits, photoshop-style.

As pointed out above, the interface is the problem- going between effects in a long chain is tiresome.

OldSmoke wrote on 2/11/2019, 9:08 AM

going between effects in a long chain is tiresome.

+1!

Musicvid wrote on 2/11/2019, 9:08 AM

It shows you've got the eyes to do the job.Not everyone does.

AVsupport wrote on 2/11/2019, 6:17 PM

I did apply the same S-Log to REC 709 LUT to both and kept the adjustments basic.

I'm not sure if 'applying a LUT' is really grading as such, for me this is more a simple locked-off conversion from one look to another, considering colour spaces etc., as if you would apply a fixed filter. The whole idea about shooting 14-ish stops LOG in the first place is to accommodate a higher dynamic range in the aqcuisition process than the 7-stops vanilla 709 can accommmodate. However, the captured scenes may only have 11 stops range, which one would have to then grade to suit and fit into that 709 to have good appeal. All the normal colour tools in VP are linear and not log, like you have the option in Resolve. But if the source material is log, that's what you'd want.

And yes, all the colour grading tools should be in one plugin, alike Newblue ColourFast2 does, plus a switch 709<->LOG.

fan-boy wrote on 2/11/2019, 7:40 PM

@karma17 @fr0sty @RogerS @OldSmoke @Musicvid @Grazie

if someone is so smart with color grading in Vegas , is there a tutorial to color grade in Vegas ? I do know about using Parent\Child tracks to simulate Nodes\Groups , to cascade the same effect multiple times , pre-post composite of the FX effect on the left or right side of the Composite button . All that is good . however , what is a basic way to approach color grading algorithm technique ? Anyone ? Please let the rest of us know "How To" .

RogerS wrote on 2/11/2019, 7:56 PM

For grading, start with white balance, overall contrast (get the tones in the right place), then selective color correction (fix hues, saturation of specific colors as needed). That should get you to a neutral place. Vegas has multiple useful tools for this, like color curves, the 3 way color corrector and more.

You could add looks or do creative gradIng at that point if the piece calls for it.

Musicvid wrote on 2/11/2019, 9:03 PM

You've set yourself up for six completely different answers, all of them entirely worthy.

Having started at Technicolor fresh out of college, with the best mentoring available, I stick to the basics. Most guys want to jump into the middle if the fray. I don't have the equipment budget to go there (hdr 2020) , so I'll stick with RGB theory and basic controls, which alone can take years to learn. I think that G and I agree that if you can learn it in Photoshop, life will get a lot easier when you graduate to flat-log video grading.

For instance, can you identify the Primary/Complementary order of this graded ringaround, starting at the top, and working your way clockwise? Center is your reference print. A simple identification test like this has felled better men than me (leave the eyedroppers at home, kiddos).

Kinvermark wrote on 2/11/2019, 9:56 PM

for most basic, uncomplicated situations, Vegas can do just as good of a job. But for me, even if I were to use Resolve, I would still do my editing in Vegas.

100% Agree, and this is, in fact, what I am doing now. I really enjoy using both programs together. Resolve is super quick for colour work, and Vegas super agile editing.

Grazie wrote on 2/11/2019, 11:21 PM

I keep my colour correction and then colour grading very simple. Why? ‘Cos I am simple!

1) Make sure my Target Monitor is as good as I can afford and correct my Home Cinema to the best of my abilities.

2) Use my Eyes definitely in conjunction with the Vegas Scopes. When my eyes are getting confused the Scopes keep me honest and pull me through. Pulling together what I’ve learnt in PaintShopPro (not PhotoShop) and VegasPro has been a rocky road for me. I’ve spent much time making mistakes and ploughing through books to get a handle on wrangling this element of our Craft. Oh yes, of course, anything that @Musicvid says or gives examples. Do read his Signature, it’s emmense.

3) I learnt Channel Blend manipulation from my PSP Channel Mixer, experimenting by checking Channel by Channel and checking those scopes.

4) Colour Grading I use

NewBlue’s ColorFast. It’s got as much as I need:

a) Separate/independent manipulation for Highs, Mids and Shadows (lows)

b) Masks for Skin Tones and User generated shaped-Masks.

Red Giant’s Magic Bullet Looks:

a) A quick Suck n See if there’s anything exciting I could go

b) For me it’s a bit of a Crash Dummy. I’ve seen it used by professionals and it is impressive.

I’m not sure if I’ve added anything of value to this thread?

Musicvid wrote on 2/11/2019, 11:35 PM

Grazie's got talent and intuition. While I cut my teeth on color models, he goes for the art of the result, conservatively. A*

Any takers on my little challenge above?

Grazie wrote on 2/11/2019, 11:48 PM

Any takers on my little challenge above?

No Pickers? No Scopes? Yeah, right, where do I leave my Ego? Do want me/us to rate the samples from Cool to Warm to Hot? Just by eye?

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 12:26 AM

No Pickers? No Scopes? Just by eye?

That's how we did it. We had mechanical densitometers, not suitable for correcting..

Clockwise, from top. RYGCBM, I think. (Now you can use the tools.) Notice how hard it is to distinguish Green from Yellow when caucasian flesh is your best reference.

Grazie wrote on 2/12/2019, 12:51 AM

That's how we did it.

Righto. It's only been in the last 10 years I've gotten my ColourWheels spinning in my head.

Clockwise, from top. RYGCBM, I think. (Now you can use the tools.) Notice how hard it is to distinguish Green from Yellow when caucasian flesh is your best reference.

Yeah, now I KNOW what you wanted me to do I did alright with BLUE and RED and yes, the YELLOW and GREENies were a touch scrappy for my brain, the Cauc fleshies helped. And now I've blown up your sample on my 32", and not my tiny 9" iPad, I can nail the CYAN and "MAGGIES".

Neat puzzle! Thanks @Musicvid

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 2:47 AM

And then we have the 'tween colors as wwjd would call them. Y/G, G/C, C/B, and so on. Wouldn't dare ask anyone to eyeball something I could no longer do with confidence.

Point is, it still all depends on visual discrimination, which LUTS and ACES can't replace. Eagerly awaiting others' favorite rituals, it's a really good topic.

fifonik wrote on 2/12/2019, 3:23 AM

Below are two clips. Original footage was S-Log3 /SGamut3.cine. I did apply the same S-Log to REC 709 LUT to both and kept the adjustments basic. Nothing fancy, just a fairly out-of-the-camera look. One was corrected in Vegas and the other in Resolve. In Vegas, I was in ACEScc. Do you see any startling differences?

I do not know which is which, but I see differences and like the right one more.

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 3:43 AM

On my tablet, I also agree with the slightly warmer interpretation on the right. I'll throw it on my "calibrated" PC in the morning and possibly see something different.

klt wrote on 2/12/2019, 3:52 AM

I have to hunt for the difference. It's so subtle, that anyone of the 2 pictures looks very good to me. However, I'd vote for the left one. I see there sligthly more contrast, and I like the skintone there better. That's just matter of taste...

The left one also seems a little-little bit sharper.

But again: just seeing the pictures following each other, not side by side I could not see any small difference.

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 4:05 AM

Not wishing to derail an intelligent discussion, I wish to share a compelling banter G and I had on this very subject nearly fifteen years ago (jeez!)

A lot of it is equally relevant today, except we no longer have to degauss our monitors. 🤓

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/over-correction-color-correction--33676/#ca167979

klt wrote on 2/12/2019, 4:40 AM

A lot of it is equally relevant today...

1000 thanks for that!

fan-boy wrote on 2/12/2019, 11:02 AM

@RogerS thanks , that is some good Top Down advice approach . will try that .

Musicvid's color test image requires being "Tuned in" , to this art of color observation . That is tough . It is so easy to become dyslexic when adjusting those triple color wheels .

to add to that , i have poked the Color Correction 3 wheels , to "see" the range they actually adjust .

Vegas Pro 16
Color Correction 3 color wheels .

Low
re-colors gray levels 0 up to about 200 .
only the darker lumens have most intense contrast of color change .

Mid
re-colors 48 up to about 216
and very , very slightly noticeable at 240

High
re-colors 255 down to about 184 .
very weak contrast , because the gray scale lumens is "bright"
thus , Full Red is a light pink at these High gray scale shades .

from the above , it looks like the Primary triple color wheels adjust :
Low 0 to 200
Mid 48 to 200
High 200 to 255
approximately , includes fringe re-coloring .

Low   the most intense re-coloring occur on range   0 to 100
Mid   the most intense re-coloring occur on range 128 to 184
High the most intense re-coloring occur on range 200 to 255
based on the most intense re-coloring , the 3 intervals are :
Low     0 to 100
Mid   100 to 200
High 200 to 255
approximately .

"Color Corrector" operates in 3 frequency bands .
the bandwidth of each range , Low Mid High , is fixed .
Each adjustment operates on the entire image ,... No Mask is being used .
( consider Photoshop techniques to make a "Selection" then operate on that selected area )

i also notice , in the Scopes ,...when the RGB Histogram
becomes quantized , more color noise occurs in the image .
A source image will typically have a very dense histogram
of it's RGB channels . Doing too much color manipulation
can cause these RGB densities of the histogram to become
sparse\discrete looking , and the image usually will show
color noise .