ACEScc Color Space

alifftudm95 wrote on 8/17/2019, 5:11 AM

So I found like a quick hack/cheat on skipping color correction in post using ACEScc color spaces in VP17.

ACEScc color space will automatically match all of the footage color in the timeline no matter what camera you used or color profile you shot in, REC709, REC2020, Slog, REDLog etc as long as you set each individual clip to its original color spaces. (I’m not sure how accurate is this but I found a video online explaining benefits of ACEScc color spaces)

This is the video explaining about ACEScc

I also found this old tutorial video on using ACEScc color spaces inside Sony VEGAS Pro 13

You can see in this tutorial video he needed to manually downloaded some few files and placed it inside SVP13 in order to use ACEScc color spaces. But now VEGAS Pro 17 has already ACEScc color spaces built in.

But I shot my video in Cine 4 profile and not Slog-2 nor Slog-3 profiles. Is there any way I can custom made Cine 4 profiles and placed it inside VP17 color spaces?

 

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Comments

Marco. wrote on 8/17/2019, 5:46 AM

Why not just use a Cine4 LUT instead. This would also give you the option to work in 8 bit projects for faster playback performance.

If you're using the Vegas internal preview you'd probably selected the wrong View Transform setting. It usually is sRGB for computer displays.

alifftudm95 wrote on 8/17/2019, 6:01 AM

Why not just use a Cine4 LUT instead. This would also give you the option to work in 8 bit projects for faster playback performance.

Yes, working in 8bit is much more faster but sometimes I shoot with 2-3 different cameras like Sony & Canon. Matching all of them in post using ACEScc would save me alot of time.

but For Sony color spaces options in VEGAS Pro 17 is only limited to Slog & Sgamut. No options for Cine profile

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/17/2019, 9:09 AM

Do you have a Cine4 LUT? You could use this LUT as Input LUT in the new color corrector maybe. And still use ACES1 in Vegas.

The only point where I am not sure is if that should not be a Cine4 LUT that transforms the Cine4 footage to the ACES 1 color space. Because the ACES transformation seems to take place after this LUT. But as said - I am not sure about if that is true. Have not tested that.

fr0sty wrote on 8/17/2019, 9:41 AM

You can use a cine4 lut in addition with using ACEScc on other angles. Apply this input lut to the input side of the color corrector panel (far left tab): http://pixelsamy.com/2019/06/the-only-lut-you-need-to-color-correct-cine4-picture-profile/

Then go set the view transforms in ACEScc for the other angles.

alifftudm95 wrote on 8/17/2019, 9:58 AM

You can use a cine4 lut in addition with using ACEScc on other angles. Apply this input lut to the input side of the color corrector panel (far left tab): http://pixelsamy.com/2019/06/the-only-lut-you-need-to-color-correct-cine4-picture-profile/

Then go set the view transforms in ACEScc for the other angles.

I dont get it by applying the Cine 4 Lut to the input side of the color corrector panel?

I set the video to its correct color by going to video media & change the color spaces

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alifftudm95 wrote on 8/17/2019, 10:02 AM

Do you have a Cine4 LUT? You could use this LUT as Input LUT in the new color corrector maybe. And still use ACES1 in Vegas.

The only point where I am not sure is if that should not be a Cine4 LUT that transforms the Cine4 footage to the ACES 1 color space. Because the ACES transformation seems to take place after this LUT. But as said - I am not sure about if that is true. Have not tested that.

You mean the color grading OFX?

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/17/2019, 10:40 AM

Yes, I mean the Color grading pannel.

Unfortunately, I think I was Right that the Input LUTs Acts in Addition to the ACES Transformation. So I wonder how the LUT suggested by frosty acts.

 

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/17/2019, 11:10 AM

I think it is a LUT from Cine4 to rec 709. well if that is true you will not need to apply any ACES workflow since Vegas stays in rec709 by default.

Means you have the choice:

A) use the LUT plugin as suggested by Marco. Here you can test the Cine4 LUT as suggested by Frosty. Project properties could stay 8bit or even 32bit floating point (but without any ACES1 transition)

B) use the new color pannel and apply here the Cine4 LUT in the input tab. All other settings as in A).

C) try to use an ACES 1 workflow. Set the properties of your Cine4 clips to rec709. The ACES workflow will go to rec709 anyway I assume, since your Cine4 footage is a rec709 footag anyway. Either you use here the LUT as input Lut again, or you grade the Cine4 footage manually. But I would not expect here a proper transformation as you would get it with other standardized log formats like slog or vlog.

AVsupport wrote on 8/18/2019, 7:27 AM

not sure if i would trust the LUT above to be the real deal; notwithstanding it doesn't define the colour space (gamut) in conjunction to make this worth while [personally: I use ProColour]. link look like clickbait..

BTW, so far I have been unable to find 'official' Sony CINE de-LUTS for its picture profiles, sadly. Anyone know, please do tell. I had previously raised that issue in Sony forums, to no avail..

Last changed by AVsupport on 8/18/2019, 7:29 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/18/2019, 9:21 AM

The question is really if there is such an official LUT at all. As far as I have seen this page is borring. You have to register to get access to his LUT. I have done so, it is 3D Lut so fine from that side. BUT you could also grade the footage manually, or use Filmconvert instead if you do not trust this LUT.

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2019, 10:17 AM

Doesn't the Cine4 profile just use standard Rec709 color space? I thought gamma was all if affected.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/18/2019, 10:18 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/18/2019, 1:54 PM

That is also my understanding.

alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 3:27 AM

@Wolfgang S. Just wanted to ask, in VEGAS, the color spaces for sony cameras are premade, I custom made my slog2 profiles using S.gamut3.cine

 

But in the color spaces menu, I can either pick Slog2 with Sgamut or Slog3 sgamut3.cine, how do I custom made the profiles?

suggestion made by @Marco.is to use LuT, but theres bunch of lut out there that aint correctly convert/transform the gamma for aces workflow

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alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 3:37 AM

Doesn't the Cine4 profile just use standard Rec709 color space? I thought gamma was all if affected.

This post quite old, I think user can tweak their Picture Profiles under Color Mode settings, that mean it is possible to shoot cine 4 with bigger gamma ???

 

But then it comes back to sony 8 bit limitation (Im using a6500)

Last changed by alifftudm95 on 10/6/2020, 3:38 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Marco. wrote on 10/6/2020, 3:54 AM

What is a "bigger" gamma? Gamma is the style of a curve. It can be flat or steep, it can be shaped in several ways.

alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 5:53 AM

What is a "bigger" gamma? Gamma is the style of a curve. It can be flat or steep, it can be shaped in several ways.

Ah, maybe I mistakenly confused with CIE chart with color spaces that being labeled Sony Gamma, REC709,sRGB etc

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Musicvid wrote on 10/6/2020, 6:08 AM

1. Why not just use a Cine4 LUT instead. This would also give you the option to work in 8 bit projects for faster playback performance.

2. If you're using the Vegas internal preview you'd probably selected the wrong View Transform setting. It usually is sRGB for computer displays.

1. LUTS are easy to find, make, and use. That answers your question afaiac.

2. [EDITED] I think that the vast majority of monitors output 709 color space. I just found out that sRGB, the imaging equivalent, uses the same primaries and gamut (not "gamma"), but different transfer points. And Adobe RGB monitors start in the $800-1000 range.

  • sRGB source looks just fine on a 709 monitor. Witness that most photographs are profiled sRGB. However Adobe RGB, which has a wider gamut yet, always looks warmer (redder) displayed in a 709 space, so much so that more often than not, I can guess the original color space of a portrait (Adobe or sRGB) by looking at it. Color printers default to sRGB, and my archival scanning business relies on scanner, monitor, and printer all being within a gnat's ass of perfect using an X-Rite (mine says Macbeth) card, only because that's what I learned with in the film business.
RogerS wrote on 10/6/2020, 6:19 AM

I don't think ACES will live up to its promise of matching different cameras without having dedicating IDTs that match the settings you shot the footage with. Sure you could shoot Cine 4 with a larger color gamut (like s-gamut), but would then need a way to at least map the primaries back to Rec 709. I doubt anyone has made a proper IDT for this unpopular combination (or really any Cine 4- it is just a variant of Cine 1).

My vote for camera matching would be to stay in 8-bit mode and use the Leeming LUT (note the current Pro II iteration was made with the a7III, which is close to but a bit different than the a6500). I use that with Cine 2 on my a6500. S-log 2 is also an option but not really recommended for 8-bit cameras due to banding.

alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 6:31 AM

I don't think ACES will live up to its promise of matching different cameras without having dedicating IDTs that match the settings you shot the footage with. Sure you could shoot Cine 4 with a larger color gamut (like s-gamut), but would then need a way to at least map the primaries back to Rec 709. I doubt anyone has made a proper IDT for this unpopular combination (or really any Cine 4- it is just a variant of Cine 1).

My vote for camera matching would be to stay in 8-bit mode and use the Leeming LUT (note the current Pro II iteration was made with the a7III, which is close to but a bit different than the a6500). I use that with Cine 2 on my a6500. S-log 2 is also an option but not really recommended for 8-bit cameras due to banding.

From my understanding, IDT is used to assign the color space of the footage before working in ACES?

That's where we need LuT or the software premade profiles (Vegas Color Space) to convert em?

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RogerS wrote on 10/6/2020, 7:20 AM

I don't think that's quite right. An IDT is an essential part of ACES that characterizes the camera + settings for the ACES color space. It's an alternative to look-up tables (intended for REC 709 or REC 2020 footage) and a completely different workflow. I don't know how IDTs are made or if it is feasible for end-users to create their own.

I first got really excited by the goal and potential of ACES, but after trying it out realized without custom IDTs it's pretty limited, and performance in Vegas 32-bit mode isn't good either.

alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 7:22 AM

I know Davinci is well known for its excel capabilities for coloring, but in Resolves, there is an FX color Color Space transform where we can pick the gamut & gamma for the media, unlike VEGAS we are stuck or forced to shot with a camera setting base on what VEGAS color spaces offer.

 

btw Im not using ACES workspace in Resolves

 

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adis-a3097 wrote on 10/6/2020, 7:29 AM

Isn't Cine 4 actually s Sony's variant of 709 that, as such, doesn't need color space conversion? Grading to taste - yes - but not converting. :)

alifftudm95 wrote on 10/6/2020, 7:35 AM

Isn't Cine 4 actually s Sony's variant of 709 that, as such, doesn't need color space conversion? Grading to taste - yes - but not converting. :)

Yea its 709, but since im using ACEScc to color correct my media in VEGAS, all of it need to be assign first. I'm no longer use Cine 4 when shooting, often use slog2 to get the most dynamic range, but then theres a problem I encountered as vegas only have slog2 sgamut or slog3 with sgamut3.cine.

 

I customize my slog2 with sgamut3.cine spaces, how do I assign it in VEGAS?

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adis-a3097 wrote on 10/6/2020, 7:38 AM

Isn't Cine 4 actually s Sony's variant of 709 that, as such, doesn't need color space conversion? Grading to taste - yes - but not converting. :)

Yea its 709, but since im using ACEScc to color correct my media in VEGAS, all of it need to be assign first. I'm no longer use Cine 4 when shooting, often use slog2 to get the most dynamic range, but then theres a problem I encountered as vegas only have slog2 sgamut or slog3 with sgamut3.cine.

 

I customize my slog2 with sgamut3.cine spaces, how do I assign it in VEGAS?

Well, in that case I'd set media properties to sRGB or 709, depending on which ODT you end up using. :)