Now, apart from conserving SD space,

It shouldn't make any difference if you are recording at the same bitrate. Bitrates are measured per second, not per frame, not per pixel.

If you need to deliver in 30p, you should shoot in 30p as well. Otherwise you can have strobe on panning (too short exposure => every frame is too sharp) or will need to deal with artificial motion blur.

P.S. I do shoot & render in 60p only. Absolutely do not like 30p.

What most technicians who dabble as artists - as opposed to those of us who are artists and master the technical - don't understand...frame rate is an aesthetic choice. So at 60fps you have what would be called a video effect - the footage looks hype real. With each of the lower frame rates the video effect lessons slightly. So at 50fps you still get a video effect, but at lower light levels you get some of the 24fps dreamy effect. 30fps you can capture light dancing, but the video effect is diminished. Finally at 24fps - you get the film cinema effect...depending on lenses and the quality of both the lens and the camera.

Of course you can still technically get movement at even lower frame rates like 15fps. Finally, don't forget that higher framrates mean larger files.

@DrNeb - I was with you, mostly, until you wrote this:

Finally, don't forget that higher framrates mean larger files.

How much of this is reflected in file size, as opposed to bitrate? Do you know if higher framerates create larger Bitrates? Interesting 🤔....

Simply said, without compression, you have to store twice as much data when shooting at 60fps instead of 30fps. To keep the same quality, you have to raise the bitrate, means larger files.

So, gentlemen, higher FrameRate can result in Larger Files because the BitRate is required to be increased if quality is to be maintained. When I’ve mentioned in the past that FrameRates lead to larger files I was politely informed that it was only Bitrate that did this, but, understandable, the other variable is, of course, the wish to maintain quality. Was this ever the case. Thinking back to my grabbling with DVD encoding, and my need to sustain quality over play time the spectre of BitRate loomed large. Meaning my need to squash more into DVD and sustain quality.

Simply said, without compression, you have to store twice as much data when shooting at 60fps instead of 30fps. To keep the same quality, you have to raise the bitrate, means larger files.

This is not completely true when we are talking about inter-frame compression. On higher framerates differences between consecutive frames are smaller so compression is better. Especially on lower AVC profiles where encoder not allowed to search differences too far.

Some camcorders have PAL and NTSC versions. Framerates are 50 and 60 fps but bitrate (bits per SECOND) is the same. Measured quality is about the same.

Sure, quite often developers increasing birtare on higher framerates.

You'll need twice the light and shutter speed to keep motion looking the same.

That's why I said: Simply said, WITHOUT COMPRESSION...

When I rendered my PAL 50fps Projects, I always took a 1,5 times higher bitrate than when rendering a PAL 25fps Project. But since shortly, I render all my Projects with the superb Voukoder for Vegas encoder. Almost as fast as MAGIX NVENC, but with far better quality at far smaller filesizes. No dealing with rendertemplates/resolutions/framerates/bitrates or whatever. I just choose between H.264 or H.265 output and get superb results at ridiculous small filesizes.

@DrNeb - I was with you, mostly, until you wrote this:

Finally, don't forget that higher framrates mean larger files.

How much of this is reflected in file size, as opposed to bitrate? Do you know if higher framerates create larger Bitrates? Interesting 🤔....

 

I'm a little confused at your confusion I must admit - If you mean you can lower the bitrate of 60fps or a higher compression field when filming...then yes of course you will get smaller file sizes. But think about it this way - the more images you take...the bigger the size of the file. It makes sense. So say each frame is 1 meg...at 24fps we have 24 meg. At 60fps we have 60 meg. You could lower the bitrate or compress your images further...say to 500 kb, which would halve your over all file size but at 60fps you're still going to end up with a larger file size. Yes?

Personally I don't see the point in using lower bit depths. These days our machines are capable of 4k 10 bit AVIs...this is what I use for my animations. Of course with film not many film with 10 bit raw, but if you can...you should. I'm now drifting into the technological digital medium and the theories on said medium though. The OP was on frame rate though.

So let's clear up this point of contention. It's really simple. But a couple of theorists here are conflating, apples vs. oranges style.

Ex. 1. An AVI (intraframe) 60fos file will always be twice as large as 30 fps at a given quality because it maintains full bits per pixel per frame. Each pixel in each frame gets encoded, whether identical or not. It's agnostic to motion.

Ex. 2. An mp4 (interframe) file will still be larger at 60fps than at 30, but never twice as large. In fact, it might be only a few MB larger, due to the fact that identical pixels in adjoining frames are not encoded, just referenced. BPP can be in the 0.25 to 2.5 bpp range. So file size might be only a few % larger, again at the given predicted quality.

Understanding of course, that many people prefer 60 fps because it appears smoother, there's no reason to presume much larger file sizes, except with high motion complexity, which doesn't compress well in any scheme.

Youtube recommend 33% larger files for 60p over 30p and Twitch 25% although I've noticed on Transcoded files encoded by Twitch there's a 33% difference between 30p and 60p. It sounds like 33% larger files for encodes may be reasonable in worst case scenarios such as high motion graphics for the majority of the time

@Grazie just curious, why do you want to film in 30p or 60p, aren't you living in a PAL country?

Indoors filming in Europe can give you flickering if your camera is set to NTSC (30 or 60p) due to the 50Hz electricity grid if there are artificial lights present...

@Grazie just curious, why do you want to film in 30p or 60p, aren't you living in a PAL country?

@bitman - The Camera doesn’t allow any other HD Framerates.

I'm in PAL country and bought NTSC camcorder overseas as I like 60p much more than 50p (that I used to have before).

Mostly I'm recording outdoor where no any lamps. While recording indoor in my home I do not have flickering with CFL/LED lamps as well. Only recently I got some flickering when our aquarium with broken fluro driver was recorded in background. I was happy about this as I finally got chance to play with NeatVideo's flickering removal! (the latest version can do this).

This is an excellent question @Grazie and one I've wondered about as well. I have multiple action cams which can shoot at 30fps, 60fps, and 120fps. I've been told that if you plan on doing slow-mo effects, then shooting at the highest frame rates is a necessity to make the slow-mo sections look best. This is something I plan on doing because I will be filming some Karate how-to-vids coming up, and I would like to slow the motion down in sections for the viewers. However, what I've always wondered is that if I shoot at 120fps, and use slow-mo effect, then what frame rate do I set my Vegas properties to when importing the files and will it be ok to render at 30fps, or should I render at a higher frame rate?

This is something I plan on doing because I will be filming some Karate how-to-vids coming up, and I would like to slow the motion down in sections for the viewers. However, what I've always wondered is that if I shoot at 120fps, and use slow-mo effect, then what frame rate do I set my Vegas properties to when importing the files and will it be ok to render at 30fps, or should I render at a higher frame rate?

Just set your project framerate to the frame rate you prefer (30fps or 60fps) and import your 120 fps shootings at projects frame rate, depending on your project frame rate setting (30fps or 60fps), the 120 fps will than be played with 30 or 60 fps, is 25% or 50% of the original speed (means slomo) without any resampled frames=best quality.

@Rednroll

Slow Motion from 120 FPS shot at 1/120 sec. shutter speed. Delivered at 30 FPS.

Exposure can be a challenge when shooting video indoors at 1/120 shutter speed. I've never had a problem outdoors.

This is something I plan on doing because I will be filming some Karate how-to-vids coming up, and I would like to slow the motion down in sections for the viewers. However, what I've always wondered is that if I shoot at 120fps, and use slow-mo effect, then what frame rate do I set my Vegas properties to when importing the files and will it be ok to render at 30fps, or should I render at a higher frame rate?

Just set your project framerate to the frame rate you prefer (30fps or 60fps) and import your 120 fps shootings at projects frame rate, depending on your project frame rate setting (30fps or 60fps), the 120 fps will than be played with 30 or 60 fps, is 25% or 50% of the original speed (means slomo) without any resampled frames=best quality.

That makes perfect sense but the scenario would be for the footage to be played at normal speed, then to duplicate individual sections within the project and then have the duplicate sections play back in slow motion so it is easier for the viewer to better see the proper techniques. I am also envisioning that it would not be a liner slow motion (ie 1/2 speed constant playback), but more of a gradual slow down and slowing down to an almost stop at what would be considered critical position of motion. If you watch NFL football, or likely most any other sports in regards to replay reviews of where they playback in real-time and then gradually slow down to an almost stop, then that would be what I would like to achieve.

So based on what you described if I'm understanding it correctly, if my footage is shot at 120fps, then I should set my project properties to 120fps to maintain the normal playback speed section aspects.

@Rednroll

Slow Motion from 120 FPS shot at 1/120 sec. shutter speed. Delivered at 30 FPS.

Exposure can be a challenge when shooting video indoors at 1/120 shutter speed. I've never had a problem outdoors.

Thanks John, that is very similar to what I would like to achieve but imagine as the kid is swinging his arm and then makes impact with the board in your video that I would want to gradually slow that section down even further until his fist came to a freeze frame complete stop when his hand makes contact with the board. The idea here is that I would be adding voice narrative to the video to further explain to the viewer of what is taking place.

I would also be shooting with multiple cameras and trying to show different angle perspectives with the slow downs as well.

For the challenges you mention for indoor vs outdoor, is that due to indoor lighting flicker as discussed previously or the lack of indoor lighting brightness/color as compared to outdoor light?

"For the challenges you mention for indoor vs outdoor, is that due to indoor lighting flicker as discussed previously or the lack of indoor lighting brightness/color as compared to outdoor light?"

Flicker is a potential problem, but the challenges that I had to deal with in this location were 1) having to raise the ISO and the potential for sensor noise and 2) shooting near the f4 maximum aperture of the lens which lowered the depth of field. The latter can be difficult when athletes are running around all over and other people pass in front of my subject. Via La Dual Pixel Auto Focus! DPAF can still be fooled, though.

"I am also envisioning that it would not be a liner slow motion (ie 1/2 speed constant playback), but more of a gradual slow down and slowing down to an almost stop at what would be considered critical position of motion."

Velocity Envelope.

P.S. You're not going to get any competition from me with karate tutorials.