Cineform Gamma Shift issues

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/14/2017, 10:42 AM

Came across this issue and wonder if anyone knows what's going on. I still have Adobe Media Encoder CS6 installed due to being able to batch render clips to Cineform. I've been doing some comparisons in Vegas Pro 13 and discovered an issue.

The first screen grab shows the Cineform clip (left side) rendered from Adobe Media Encoder with a noticeable difference in Gamma shift compared to the XVAC-L clip along side it. as shown below:

The image below is the same settings in Vegas Pro 13 - the only difference is the Cineform clip (left side) was rendered within Vegas Pro - it looks identical to the XVAC-L clip for Gamma as seen below:

Each of these screen grabs were with the render output settings set to Original in Vegas - I've tried changing export options within AME for Cineform and still get the drastic gamma shift. Is this about Adobe seeing the original clip and flagging it differently or???

MediaInfo isn't showing me anything out of the ordinary as seen below:

What options are there for doing batch renders - either as a script for Vegas Pro or a third party stand alone app? I'm converting my Drone footage and Olympus mirrorless footage from h.264 mp4 for Cineform and used SONY Catalyst 2015.1.2 Prepare for XVAC conversion.

Lastly - How does XVAC-L compare to Cineform and should that be my intermediate conversion option when editing in Vegas?

Thoughts?

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 11/14/2017, 3:08 PM

Cineform converts YUV to TV levels without asking.

XAVC doesn't ask, doesn't care.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/14/2017, 3:14 PM

Cineform converts YUV to TV levels without asking.

XAVC doesn't ask, doesn't care.

Thanks @Musicvid for that - I found it surprising that a Cineform clip rendered in Vegas Pro would look the same as the Catalyst XVAC clip, but the same Cineform clip rendered in Adobe Media Encoder would have such a drastic gamma shift.

Out of curiosity - which one is the correct render for Gamma? Additionally - from a post standpoint, which intermediate file format appears to be more future proof while at the same time maintaining as high an image quality as possible?

Musicvid wrote on 11/14/2017, 3:24 PM

I would go with XAVC for compatibility.

AVsupport wrote on 11/14/2017, 3:44 PM

for 'batch renders' you should be able to use the 'archive' workflow, including the clips on the timeline, perhaps?

EDIT: NO this does NOT work, as clips won't get rendered. Only durations / unused material can be omitted in the archive.

Last changed by AVsupport on 12/12/2017, 5:45 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

16GB (2x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/14/2017, 4:13 PM

IIRC Adobe media encoder cs6 had cineform options under both quicktime .mov or .avi Which did you use?

I typically batch through Vegas using Vegasaur, although I have used Gopro studio too. Two other options: FootageStudio and Dali's Mustache.

 

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/14/2017, 4:28 PM

IIRC Adobe media encoder cs6 had cineform options under both quicktime .mov or .avi Which did you use?

I typically batch through Vegas using Vegasaur, although I have used Gopro studio too. Two other options: FootageStudio and Dali's Mustache.

 

I used AVI as the wrapper given that VP13 and max number of MOV clips on the timeline has memory issues

Kinvermark wrote on 11/17/2017, 10:00 PM

Good choice - quicktime often has gamma issues.

I too have CS6, but I wouldn't trust AME any more - too old. There have been several updates to Cineform/gopro since then.

marc-s wrote on 11/19/2017, 1:29 PM

I've run into a number of issues over the years trying to render files between Vegas and other programs. Found that only a few codecs don't shift levels and it varies between programs. For HD between AE or Premiere CS6 and Vegas XDCAM 422 preserves proper levels. Also finding XAVC reliable for bringing into TMPEG Enc. I use Avid DNxHD render from Vegas for rendering in Handbrake.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 1:36 PM

I've run into a number of issues over the years trying to render files between Vegas and other programs. Found that only a few codecs don't shift levels and it varies between programs. For HD between AE or Premiere CS6 and Vegas XDCAM 422 preserves proper levels. Also finding XAVC reliable for bringing into TMPEG Enc. I use Avid DNxHD render from Vegas for rendering in Handbrake.

The stability of Ppro CS6 is why I haven't moved away just yet. And the issues that I see arising with Vegas 15 are not encouraging me to upgrade yet as much as I would like to. Vegas Pro 13 is perfect for the audio slideshows I produce but it seems for any serious work on my end of things for video I need to work in the slower methodology, yet much more stable Ppro CS6 that doesn't muck with gamma levels for video clips. I hope Magix gets VP15 sorted out...

 

 

Kinvermark wrote on 11/19/2017, 3:01 PM

I hope Magix gets VP15 sorted out...

Me too! I am happy to spend the small amount of money the upgrade costs, but I will not build a house on a sand dune :)

By the way, do you use any plugins for your audio slideshows? (e.g. vegasaur, Vasst...) ?

 

AVsupport wrote on 11/19/2017, 3:42 PM

Funny part being, it seems that in Magix's Land, Updates are triggered by the Calendar Day and not the Feature Set..:-/

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

16GB (2x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 4:09 PM

I hope Magix gets VP15 sorted out...

Me too! I am happy to spend the small amount of money the upgrade costs, but I will not build a house on a sand dune :)

By the way, do you use any plugins for your audio slideshows? (e.g. vegasaur, Vasst...) ?

 

I use the Vegas2Handbrake script for rendering and the SeMW plugin to get more accurate levels for when I render.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 4:09 PM

Funny part being, it seems that in Magix's Land, Updates are triggered by the Calendar Day and not the Feature Set..:-/

Calendar day???

AVsupport wrote on 11/19/2017, 4:34 PM

EULA 2.3:

2.3 With regard to updates and features delivered within the scope of the MAGIX update guarantee, the following applies: The license for updates and features delivered within the 12 months after initial registration of the MAGIX product is limited to the installation(s) in place at the point when the 12-month period expires. If the update guarantee is extended beyond the 12-month period, this limitation does not apply.

..sorry wrong thread please disrgard

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

16GB (2x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/19/2017, 5:07 PM

@cliff Etzel

So you don't use anything to automate "Ken Burns" style pan & scans of your photos? I am interested in the workflow.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 6:23 PM

@cliff Etzel

So you don't use anything to automate "Ken Burns" style pan & scans of your photos? I am interested in the workflow.

My workflow starts in camera and recording audio interviews/ambient audio on 2 separate occasions.

  1. I shoot Olympus mirrorless camera - since they're mirrorless, it affords me the ability to compose in camera in 16:9 PAR in the electronic viewfinder - I shoot RAW only to afford as high an IQ as possible. I only shoot in horizontal format and compose accordingly.
  2. When ready to ingest images, I use Capture One 7 instead of Lightroom to ingest my RAW files as it doesn't force my images into 16:9 PAR leaving them in their native 4:3 PAR. My biggest gripe about Lightroom is it forces the images on ingest into 16:9 without being able to change that option and it's a known issue with Lightroom that Adobe refuses to fix. In addition, Capture One exports higher quality files compared to Lightroom - I can see the visual differences between the same image exported from each app.
  3. I do all my selects in Capture One with all adjustments for exposure, color correction (or conversion to b/w).
  4. I export out all my selects as PNG's at 2880 pixels on the long side due to how well Vegas handles PNG's over JPG's. This affords the capability of doing Ken Burn's type effects having some extra resolution for zooming, panning, etc on the timeline.
  5. For audio, I work in either Sound Forge 10 or Adobe Audition CS6 (I use the latter due to how well their noise reduction tool works compared to Sound Forge as well as the dark interface of Audition), I import my native 96khz 24bit recorded audio files for noise removal, sweetening, etc.
  6. I export all working audio files as 48khz 16 bit WAV files leaving all original files untouched
  7. I bring all working images and audio folders into Vegas sorted by bins labeled accordingly.
  8. I begin to cut my audio clips in the trimmer first and lay them on the timeline to create the story narrative.
  9. I start adding the stills to reflect the audio narrative - My default setting for each still image is 3-5 seconds.
  10. I don't tend to do much with regards to "Ken Burns" movements. I instead will opt for using the Parallax Technique on certain stills if I feel it's wanted/needed and will do that in Photoshop CS6 - see this test video I did for the finished result

    https://vimeo.com/243568347/008a771b70
     
  11. I wash, rinse and repeat the project on the timeline until the story is as solid as I can make it.
  12. Once the timeline is locked for stills and interview material, I'll add any ambient audio as needed.
  13. I edit using 2 screens and use the SeMW plugin to get accurate final results for gamma, contrast, etc.
  14. I render out the final video via Vegas2Handbrake as an MP4 file.

Here are a couple of projects I've done recently in Vegas 13 using all but the parallax technique.

https://vimeo.com/239057699

https://vimeo.com/204722540

Hope this info was what you were asking for.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/19/2017, 7:17 PM

Great info! Thanks Cliff.

fr0sty wrote on 11/19/2017, 7:19 PM

I shoot timelapses all the time in my camera's native aspect, and lightroom does not force them into 16:9 when I edit them, I am able to export the native aspect so I can pan and scan within vegas afterwards.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 7:25 PM

I shoot timelapses all the time in my camera's native aspect, and lightroom does not force them into 16:9 when I edit them, I am able to export the native aspect so I can pan and scan within vegas afterwards.

@fr0sty What version of Lightroom are you using? It's a known issue with no way to change it and I've owned Lightroom since version 3 and I have yet to find a way to keep Lightroom from ingesting my images when shot as 16:9 in camera from not cropping them on ingest.

fr0sty wrote on 11/19/2017, 7:31 PM

Whatever the latest CC version is, I subscribe to CC. I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at, are you shooting at 4:3 ratio in-camera and just composing your image as if it were a 16:9 frame?

 

All the wide angle shots in this timelapse were shot in my camera's native aspect ratio (4:3 or 3:2, can't remember which), imported into lightroom, edited and exported in the same aspect ratio, imported into Vegas, then I did panning and scanning as I saw fit.

 

https://www.facebook.com/dustin.rudzinski/videos/10159271995540007/

 

This one too of the eclipse. I shot with a fisheye in native aspect then squished the image into the frame as best I could: https://www.facebook.com/dustin.rudzinski/videos/10159146597495007/

Last changed by fr0sty on 11/19/2017, 7:38 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 8:09 PM

Whatever the latest CC version is, I subscribe to CC. I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at, are you shooting at 4:3 ratio in-camera and just composing your image as if it were a 16:9 frame?

 

All the wide angle shots in this timelapse were shot in my camera's native aspect ratio (4:3 or 3:2, can't remember which), imported into lightroom, edited and exported in the same aspect ratio, imported into Vegas, then I did panning and scanning as I saw fit.

 

https://www.facebook.com/dustin.rudzinski/videos/10159271995540007/

 

This one too of the eclipse. I shot with a fisheye in native aspect then squished the image into the frame as best I could: https://www.facebook.com/dustin.rudzinski/videos/10159146597495007/

Since I shoot mirrorless which has an electronic viewfinder, I can change the PAR to 16:9 for composition. But I don't want Lightroom mucking with my ingest and it does exactly that. I want to see the full frame micro 4/3 frame so if I want to recompose I can. Lightroom forces you to work with how you shot in camera whereas Capture One doesn't. In other words - How I shoot and what I want Adobe doesn't allow me to do. I'd rather do all cropping, etc in post before rendering out to PNG. I've tried it the way you do and it made more work for me in post because I want to compose in the viewfinder as best I can and know that no matter what, I get what I want on screen - comes from my days of shooting film and forcing my photo editors in newspaper to work at cropping my images by my filling the frame. But since we live in a Horizontal world for viewing content on screens, this is the workflow process/tools I use to get it done right for my needs.

marc-s wrote on 11/19/2017, 8:59 PM

I also love Vegas for creating slide shows with movement, hard to beat it. However I'm actually editing my first project in Resolve Studio and although there are some features from Vegas I'd really like to see implemented, Resolve is pretty amazing and improving so fast I'm looking forward to see where they take it. Vegas is just moving too slow for me to wait much longer. I did upgrade to 15 so I'll keep it in my toolbox for now. I noticed the Boris title 3D program I received with 15 also works in Resolve so I'm happy about that.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/19/2017, 9:01 PM

I also love Vegas for creating slide shows with movement, hard to beat it. However I'm actually editing my first project in Resolve Studio and although there are some features from Vegas I'd really like to see implemented, Resolve is pretty amazing and improving so fast I'm looking forward to see where they take it. Vegas is just moving too slow for me to wait much longer. I did upgrade to 15 so I'll keep it in my toolbox for now. I noticed the Boris title 3D program I received with 15 also works in Resolve so I'm happy about that.

I'm not a fan of Resolve's node based color correction/grading but might give it a try...