Color Banding in preview monitor - only happens in Vegas Pro?

Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/19/2018, 5:22 PM

I recently noticed something that I'm confused about - Playing back the Cineform converted clip of some sample GH5 422 10 bit footage shows pretty noticeable color banding in the preview window of Vegas Pro 14/15 Trial. I've compared the same clip in Premiere Pro CS6 and Davinci Resolve 14 to make sure it wasn't the clip in general - the latter 2 NLE's show no color banding in their respective preview monitors. I also tried changing the Vegas timeline to 32bit float and there is still color banding in the preview monitor.

Not trying to start another (alternative NLE is better) discussion - I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing in Vegas settings to alleviate the color banding. And with regards to comparing renders of the same clip between the three NLE's - the color banding is still there from the Vegas Pro renders.

I still see Vegas having a place in my post workflow, just want to get these kinds of things sorted out before using it on paying work - especially short turn around projects as that's where it excels IMO.

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/19/2018, 7:35 PM

I'm pretty sure the preview buss is 8 bit RGB regardless of source or project.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/19/2018, 7:38 PM

I'm pretty sure the preview buss is 8 bit RGB regardless of source or project.

ok - must be my eyes then for the other two NLE's - it's pretty apparent to me with Vegas but maybe there's banding with the other options I tried and it's more subtle...

Thanks for clarifying

Red Prince wrote on 5/19/2018, 7:40 PM

I'm pretty sure the preview buss is 8 bit RGB regardless of source or project.

Even if both your monitor and your graphics card are set to use 10 bits per channel?

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/19/2018, 7:45 PM

I'm pretty sure the preview buss is 8 bit RGB regardless of source or project.

Even if both your monitor and your graphics card are set to use 10 bits per channel?

I'm not using a deck link card/10 bit monitor so I can't answer your question. All I know is using Resolve 14 and Premiere Pro CS6 I don't see any banding with the exact same setup when tested with Vegas14/15 trial hence my initial question.

Red Prince wrote on 5/19/2018, 9:46 PM

I was hoping Musicvid would answer it.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

Former user wrote on 5/19/2018, 10:04 PM

I am curious, on my Nvidia control panel, there is an option to always use the Nvidia color driver or to use the applications (video players) color. I wonder if this is in play here with each application applying different settings to the video card?

Musicvid wrote on 5/20/2018, 1:01 PM

Red Prince, my impression isn't verified, and I don't know how I would test it.

I do believe that Vegas uses a pattern dither when it is forced to downsample 10-8 bit, and that banding is more apparent in certain situations as a result. That may fit with some of Cliff's preview description. Top is Vegas, bottom is libav.

Musicvid wrote on 5/20/2018, 1:52 PM

Red Prince, I don't have a high-bit monitor, all I can go on are artifacts like moire and banding, but an image like this may help answer your question. DO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT!

https://github.com/jursonovicst/gradient

Red Prince wrote on 5/20/2018, 4:27 PM

DO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT!

Thanks! I loaded the PNG into Vegas Pro 15 and switched the preview to full screen. Did not see a difference, but then noticed Vegas opened it in the 8-bit mode, so I changed it to 32 bits and set the annoying ACES to off (annoying because no matter how many times I select the make this the default thingie, it always starts all my new projects with ACES set to sRGB, which makes everything look like Munchkin Land in Wizard of Oz, and when I mentioned it on this forum, the only reply I got was from Nick telling me it should not be doing it 😒).

I still could not tell any difference, but then I used Event Pan/Crop to zoom into several smaller parts of the image. Then I did see a difference in the full screen mode.

So, it appears Vegas Pro can take advantage of a 10-bit display. Now, if I could figure out how to tell MAGIC AVS/AAC MP4 how many bits to render with. I don’t see any such option anywhere.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/21/2018, 12:09 AM

Vegas will render to 10bit if you User in the project settings the 32bit floating point mode, and if you use one of the encoders/Codes that work with 10bit. The only Encoder where you find 8bit/10bit Settings is the HEVC encoder.

NickHope wrote on 5/21/2018, 2:45 AM

DO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT!

Thanks! I loaded the PNG into Vegas Pro 15 and switched the preview to full screen. Did not see a difference, but then noticed Vegas opened it in the 8-bit mode, so I changed it to 32 bits and set the annoying ACES to off (annoying because no matter how many times I select the make this the default thingie, it always starts all my new projects with ACES set to sRGB, which makes everything look like Munchkin Land in Wizard of Oz, and when I mentioned it on this forum, the only reply I got was from Nick telling me it should not be doing it 😒)...

@Red Prince Really? I don't recall that. Mistaken identity maybe?

Anyway I have reported the issue with "View transform" being reset to "ACES RRT (sRGB)" after a restart, despite checking "Start all new projects with these settings", [Ticket#2018052017001067]. Also added it to the Known Issues post. It happens in all of VP12, 13, 14 and 15.

Red Prince wrote on 5/21/2018, 10:43 AM

@Red Prince Really? I don't recall that. Mistaken identity maybe?

No, it was much earlier. I actually appreciated you saying it was wrong back then because I thought it would be fixed soon.

Anyway I have reported the issue with "View transform" being reset to "ACES RRT (sRGB)" after a restart, despite checking "Start all new projects with these settings", [Ticket#2018052017001067]. Also added it to the Known Issues post. It happens in all of VP12, 13, 14 and 15.

Thanks, Nick! I really appreciate it.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

NickHope wrote on 5/22/2018, 10:14 AM

I received a reply from Support on the ACES project properties issue that included this:

"This is now escalated to our DEV and QA departments, and will be resolved in a future application update."

Red Prince wrote on 5/22/2018, 11:04 AM

Thanks, Nick! 😃👍

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)