I think comingling Vegas Transforms and LUTS, which are external, is asking for trouble. At least it's a learning curve I haven't tackled yet. Do you have a V-Log->709 LUT for your Panny? For example, Canon has a bunch of them.

Maybe @fr0sty has a better idea.

I'm using the official Panasonic Vlog to rec 709 LUT if that's what you're asking. But in HDR10 mode I can't use it since if I turn off my view transform it disables HDR10 mode. Since that is so, I will have to settle for the vegas transforms, either rec 709 or rec 2020 1000 nits.

If I could disable the view transform that may fix my problem, so I can just use my official LUT, but it seems to force me to use it when either HDR mode is enabled.

@Teagan The other day I was struggling with similar, using 32 bit Full Range in Project Properties. I came to the same conclusion to either use the view transform or input lut, but not both together. I wasn’t doing HDR so I could turn off the View Transform and apply the lut or use the View Transform without the Lut.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-18-update-5-build-527--129048/?page=3#ca802647

My hdr workflow for 10 bit vlog is, open a default 4k HDR project, let it set everything regarding view transform.

Import vlog footage. Right click it, set color space in properties to "vlog/vgamut".

Color the video as needed, i don't use any luts here as the vlog view transform applied to the clips does this.

render to hdr hevc or h264.

Remember to preview hdr, your external monitor must have windows hdr mode enabled in windows display properties for that monitor.

Vegas has a vlog/vgamut view transform, use that in hdr mode. No lut required if rendering to hdr.

You mean just set the project media input color space to Vlog/VGamut and then use any view transform and that is applying the LUT automatically? And is that the same as the official Panasonic one?

Color space/IDT replaces the LUT and the color space was most likely created by Panasonic in the first place. My understanding is that this is all ACES, a standard Vegas conforms to, not something Vegas created.

You certainly would not use a HDR to REC 709 LUT in an HDR project (you are trying to transform log to HDR and Rec 2020, not SDR and Rec 709). If you want to do HDR I think commit to it at every stage of the workflow.

That makes a lot of sense, to not use the rec 709 LUT for a rec 2020 project, but the V-Log L in my camera is rec 709 limited, as it's the cheap version without the full V-Gamut.

But in HDR10 mode I can't use it since if I turn off my view transform it disables HDR10 mode.

Yes, exactly. It's just a generic preset.

That makes a lot of sense, to not use the rec 709 LUT for a rec 2020 project, but the V-Log L in my camera is rec 709 limited, as it's the cheap version without the full V-Gamut.

Well, my understanding is that just means the color gamut is limited. It's still a version of log (as is HLG) so you have to map its somewhat extended brightness range to SDR or HDR. If the goal is to go to HDR, you don't want to limit the dynamic range to SDR with a LUT and then bring it back to HDR.

@fr0sty If you had some free time, would you mind providing some tips on grading HDR footage? I'm dabbling in it now that I have drone footage that records in HDR. Also my GH5s can do HLG and V-log 10 bit so I might as well give it a shot in learning to grade correctly. I know that you primarily work in HDR mode so any tips would be greae. Exposing properly on location, reading the waveform monitor with nits, etc.

You certainly would not use a HDR to REC 709 LUT in an HDR project (you are trying to transform log to HDR and Rec 2020, not SDR and Rec 709). If you want to do HDR I think commit to it at every stage of the workflow.

That makes a lot of sense, to not use the rec 709 LUT for a rec 2020 project, but the V-Log L in my camera is rec 709 limited, as it's the cheap version without the full V-Gamut.

To me, it makes perfect sense to use 709 source AND space inside a 2020 program, for the fundamental fact that REC 709 is also an embedded and active subset of REC 2020. It is thus fully supported and available, in fact constituting the majority of delivery practices in use today. I've spent a lot of time on Vimeo to see what's being shot. This of course, will change, as full range 10 bit gradually goes mainstream with the adoption of newer broadcast standards (ATSC2), which have always led consumer equipment purchasing decisions.

There seems to be a basic misconception in the hood that 709 is always 8 bit. Nothing is farther from the truth, although that's where it was given life.

As one can clearly see, both 709 and P3 are quite cozy living inside the 2020 gamut, as well as on their own.

https://www.redsharknews.com/do-you-need-to-use-log-modes

@Musicvid

Yes, I did a test render and it looks great on my C9 OLED.

My source is V-Log L in rec 709 (10 bits) and rendered to the rec 2020 1000 nits HDR10 standard and I see way more detail in the shadows and highlights, and it looks so much better than my SDR master. I might be able to learn a little more about grading HDR10 and then offer it to clients in a few months.

 

As one can clearly see, both 709 and P3 are quite cozy living inside the 2020 gamut, as well as on their own.

Talking about this, a video from HDTVTest here talks about how most HDR blu ray discs are actually using the P3 color space within the rec 2020 space. Not all, and some are actually using more than P3, but it seems to be rare that they take advantage of the full rec 2020 space. So using Rec 709 within the rec 2020 space seems just the same thing the big companies are doing with the P3 standard within the rec2020 space.

Using V-Log L for my projects seems way easier to manage compared to HLG, as V-Log L has the pure scientific LUT from Panasonic for SDR work and then I can just use Vegas' handy view transform for HDR in rec 2020. HLG is a nightmare to work with, even with a rec 2020 to rec 709 LUT, as the colors shift horribly, often towards the greens, and it's under-saturated so I have to add about 65-85% more saturation, and that is hard to correct and I gave up on that method. The transforms aren't better either.

I'll just save up for a Sony FX3 or something for the end of the year and that'll give me the rec 2020 gamut coverage I want, in LOG and not in HLG, which will be way easier to work with, especially with their official LUTs.

One last question, is it OK to use my Ninja V to grade my HDR10 work? The screen is rec 709 so if I use the PQ monitoring method I'll see the brightness differences but not the rec 2020 color, so it will be flat. If I use the rec 709 monitor method I'll only be seeing about 6.5 stops and not the full 12.5~ that you get with PQ. My cheap 4K TV seems to be rec 709 limited according to my calibrator, or that's just the 8bit+dithering that is confusing it. It shows rec2020 just like my rec 709 monitors do, but shows HLG fine, but that may just be the backwards compatibility kicking in, to show the rec 709 part.

Re: JN's link, I thought this thread was about high dynamic range. Log compression is one way to capture such a range for use in HDR projects.

Point taken that you can do it even if you don't have a wide color gamut to start with. You can also do HDR with 8-bit source files (almost all Sony HLG for example).

Teagan as an FYI there is a technical correction LUT for Panasonic HLG to Rec 709 that should be more accurate than the manufacturer one. While I don't use that myself, I do use the Cine-D one in 8 and 10 bit and have all the Sony ones (I use Cine 2 and have tested Slog 3).

Let's see if we can simplify your thinking with a simple demonstration.

You see, Vegas has only starting points for log footage, not C-Log, V-Log, S-Log, et al.

So if one wants to try to emulate these intricate curves in Vegas, one is politely invited to knock themselves out.

I don't know of a situation where one would use Vegas ACES transforms in addition to a proprietary correction LUT, makes no sense whatsoever to me. Think of it this way: The Green Bay Packers and Chicago Bears aren't going to show up in the same stadium without a fight!

So, back to square 1. We have 10 bit flatlog material, so we will start in a 32 bit 1.0 gamma workspace with no ACES transform applied. Makes no difference whether we will output 10 bit or 8 bit, wrapped 709 or 2020; it's the same color gamut, only different bit depths. Then we will apply the appropriate LUT, and adjust the range and gamma to suit. Then we are done.

Canon EOS-R C-Log 10 bit Cinema Gamut REC 709

@RogerS “JN's link, I thought this thread was about high dynamic range” Apologies if I interjected with something thats not to your liking. Maybe if Magix introduces down votes, you will be in your element. Or more than likely they’ll make u moderator and then u can really go to town correcting every post that you don’t agree with.

Thanks for the info, everyone. I think I got a good understanding of this now!

@JN- Couldn't agree more. Back in 2013, I said,

"... people assume that more complex = better. For consumer delivery, (GoPro Protune) is not; what it creates is wasted time, wasted drive space, and a lot of headaches.
Protune RAW mp4 inside an editor like Vegas is about as useless as (redacted). Converted Cineform inside Vegas Pro 12 makes some sense, for a small number of users
If one wants their movies to look like traditional GoPro, why not shoot it?

You certainly would not use a HDR to REC 709 LUT in an HDR project (you are trying to transform log to HDR and Rec 2020, not SDR and Rec 709). If you want to do HDR I think commit to it at every stage of the workflow.

That makes a lot of sense, to not use the rec 709 LUT for a rec 2020 project, but the V-Log L in my camera is rec 709 limited, as it's the cheap version without the full V-Gamut.

To me, it makes perfect sense to use 709 source AND space inside a 2020 program, for the fundamental fact that REC 709 is also an embedded and active subset of REC 2020. It is thus fully supported and available, in fact constituting the majority of delivery practices in use today. I've spent a lot of time on Vimeo to see what's being shot. This of course, will change, as full range 10 bit gradually goes mainstream with the adoption of newer broadcast standards (ATSC2), which have always led consumer equipment purchasing decisions.

There seems to be a basic misconception in the hood that 709 is always 8 bit. Nothing is farther from the truth, although that's where it was given life.

As one can clearly see, both 709 and P3 are quite cozy living inside the 2020 gamut, as well as on their own.

If your delivery format is rec2020, Vgamut (vlog's color space) is far wider than Rec709, so you are going to get best results going directly from Vgamut to Rec2020 when grading HDR. If you want a workflow that is compatible with Rec709 as well, HLG fills that gap with a few tradeoffs.

If you color HDR to also look good on SDR screens, using HDR10, you're kinda defeating the purpose of the wider gamut and brightness levels. HLG has methods of solving this, but currently there is no way to live preview HLG in VEGAS as windows doesn't support it. I'm sure a LUT or view transform could handle that task, though.

so you are going to get best results going directly from Vgamut to Rec2020 when grading HDR.

If the log footage was shot in 709, as with the OP's, it's gamut doesn't change or grow inside a 2020 wrapper (which includes 709). The number of bits will vary only by the bit depth within the confines of its shooting space. It's just the same range of values living in a bigger house. It will be quite obvious alongside HDR in the same program, similar to what you said in an earlier discussion. I think that is the crux of a lot of misconceptions, as it has been for a long time. Maybe a demo when I am able to conjure a test model, maybe using trilinear plotting..

If your delivery format is rec2020, Vgamut (vlog's color space) is far wider than Rec709, so you are going to get best results going directly from Vgamut to Rec2020 when grading HDR.

The V-Log L in the GH5 and my AG-CX350 uses the rec 709 color space and not the full V-Gamut space since Panasonic only gives the full V-Log to more expensive cameras that can capture 14+ stops. My CX350 only captures about 12.5 stops so they give it the cheaper V-Log L.

It's very frustrating but I sort of understand why they do it.

One question I do have, @Musicvid regarding this, is since that is true, why does my color get flat like it's really rec 2020 when it's just rec 709 in the the rec 2020 container? Is it stretching it out past rec 709 limits to cause this? As soon as I activate the rec 2020 1000 nits transform it turns flat and unsaturated on rec 709 screens while it shows fine on rec 2020 screens.

Is the flatness just the color or rather an incorrect mapping of the brightness values (your Rec 709 screen is not anywhere near 1000 nits, more like 1/10 of that)? Color gamut is only part of the story I think.

This site (one of the first to come up in a search, sure there are other good ones) shows how gamut volume is also impacted by luminance by showing 3D, not just 2D plots: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/hdr-explained