Vegas 14 Build 270

The reason I'm importing ProRes is because the 4K Motion JPEG codec from my 5D Mark IV is crashing Vegas. I'm converting the Motion JPEG clips to ProRes (that look correct in other applications such as VLC and Premiere). I've also tried converting to ProRes in MPEG Streamclip (thinking that maybe this is a Premiere export issue) but I got the same results. I've also tried exporting to Mpeg4 from Premiere and MPEG Streamclip and I got the exact same results. They show up as dull and low contrast clips in Vegas, however they look fine in any other program.

Why are you shooting M-Jpeg?

Also, can you provide MediaInfo details for the ProRes file?

They show up as dull and low contrast clips in Vegas...

Or, maybe, Vegas displays the video exactly the way it should be.

...however they look fine in any other program.

Or, maybe, any other program displays those files erroneously.

The screenshot of "scopes", namely Vectoroscope and Waveform Monitor* would have allowed for telling where is the error.

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* -- Composite mode, not "Luminance". There is Histogram for Luminance, while the most use of Waveform comes in shape of Composite signal.

I'm shooting Motion JPEG because in 4K, that's the only option on the Mark IV. It's the ProRes 422 23.976 Proxy Format (codecs by Miraizon becuase I'm on Windows). It doesn't matter though...any ProRes version or any Motion JPEG clip converted to any format (for exapmle H.265 & H.264) in a third party application yields the same results in Vegas. Exporting to TIFF Image sequences seem to work fine though.

BUT, I just realized that you can render to Magix ProRes from Vegas (never saw that before) and those renders look proper in Vegas. The problem is that when having multiple Motion JPEG clips on the timeline, Vegas crashes. Is there a way to batch render from a media bin, so I can convert them without putting them on the timeline?

Never mind, I just realized that what I'm asking is possible with Vegasaur so as long as it doesn't crash rendering multiple clips, my problem is solved.

Jam_One, here's the pics of the scopes on the original and the converted

Oh and Jam_One... I forgot to mention, Premiere's scopes are exactly the same for the original and converted clip. And any other program you open the clips in. That's why I think Vegas is not seeing the converted clips properly. If you compare the scopes of the converted clip in both Vegas and Premiere, Premiere displays the scopes as matching the original and Vegas displays them as a duller, less contrasty image (like how Vegas displays it). So one of the programs have to be wrong and I'm betting it's Vegas because all other programs seem to agree with Premiere. Anyway, I did find a fix so it's all good. I would be nice to know what's going on though.

"Scope Original.PNG" = Correct range of levels.
"Scope Converted.PNG" = Reduced contrast / abnormal range of levels.

...I tend to believe "other programs" do apply some sort of transform to the preview/screen render... *
'Cause my experience tells me that Vegas is on the list of rare programs that do NOT "care about user's feelings" and do NOT DO many conversions behind user's back.** Thus forcing the user to care more about what s/he sees and does.

You may wish to look at some external tools/scripts that convert the Vegas's range of levels for preview.

This all makes me suppose, your MJPEG is of TV range of levels, in accordance with broadcasting standards, and Vegas shows it right; while third-party applications handle it as "childish" (consumer camera) PC / full range, converting it to even narrower range.

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* -- Lots of fun happens with interpretation of MJPEG since it never was a broadcast format and there was no "sole standard" about how its levels should be encoded/decoded. One does ultimately need to know his/hers codec/camera/workflow when it comes to MJPEG.
** -- As far as I remember, it converts MPEG2 levels.

I understand what you are saying but I just opened up the clip in a third editor (Davinci Resolve 12) and although the scopes showed a minuscule difference in the original and converted clip, it wasn't close to the difference that Vegas is showing and the difference wasn't visible to the naked eye. So it really looks like Vegas is not displaying the converted clips properly for some reason.

MJPEG should not crash Vegas, so I would suggest you to shoot a special short file to send to MAGIX with a bug report.

DaVinci Resolve accommodates totally to each & every type of content unless it is stopped by user. So, it is not a reference.

Ok, I'll send MAGIX a bug report. Not understanding your DaVinci Resolve comment.

I'd personally rather not work with prores on a vegas timeline on a PC, it makes things unnecessarily difficult.
Whenever i record DNxHD 220 on my Atomos, I transcode it to XAVCI to work with in Vegas, Not a shred of difference in quality.

This one

seems to be the correct one with no level modification happening.

Mindmatter, I didn't think to transcode it to XAVCI but I gave it a try and I think that's what I'm going to do from now on. I can't tell the difference between that and ProRes but the XAVCI plays much better than ProRes on the timeline (at preview best, it plays at full frame rate whereas ProRes only plays at half).

MJPEG is full range RGB. If you have encoded YUV levels inside, the Vegas Preview will have lower contrast and the scopes will show reduced levels.

This is actually what you want for rendering to any YUV format.

To PREVIEW in Vegas at PLAYER levels, you can add the Studio->Computer Levels FX to the Preview buss temporarily, but you will need to REMOVE the Levels filter before rendering, otherwise your levels will be too contrast and clipped.

Normal playback in VLC, etc. Is not to be taken into consideration. Vegas does not honor VUI Flags (yuv420, yuvj420), so timeline vs. rendered playback levels are entirely unrelated.

That makes sense but if I render to the exact same ProRes codec from Vegas instead of Premiere, I don't get the extreme reduced levels like I would if I rendered the clip from Premiere or MPEG Streamclip. The Vegas render looks perfect (timeline or render), even though it's still converting to YUV ProRes. That's what's confusing me.

Anyway, I'm done converting in third party programs now that I found a way to use Vegas.

Yes, and likewise, your ProRes file is likely using the yuv420p flag, an Apple contrivance that VLC and Premiere recognize, but which Vegas does not, and for good reason imho.

Also, one must take extra care to turn OFF "Dynamic Contrast" or other attractive buttons in your graphics card controls, all players, and your calibrated teevee before beginning. Otherwise...

...to see what quicksand is really like, read this entertaining, illustrated article in it's entirety.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

That was a really informative write-up...it explains a lot. But it also makes me think something else is going on here because even if I render a YUV h.264 file from Vegas (with the broadcast colors plug-in > extremely conservative set-up) I still get much more pleasing video than when rendering from Premiere.

For example, here's some videos that might help explain what's going on. The first video is a Motion JPEG RGB clip rendered to h.264 from Vegas with no plugins. The result looks exactly like the original Motion JPEG clip. It is not limited to 16 to 235 https://vimeo.com/263401588

The second video is the same Motion JPEG RGB clip rendered to h.264 using Premiere. The colors are more dull and the video has less contrast. Premiere seems to automatically limit the render to 16 to 235 when rendering to a YUV format. https://vimeo.com/263401705

The third is the Motion JPEG clip rendered in Vegas but this time it has the Broadcast Filter plug-in so (like the Premiere render) it's limited to 16 to 235. It still looks much closer to the original RGB clip than the clip rendered in Premiere. https://vimeo.com/263401760

I'll be working with a Premiere editor on an upcoming project (I'll be using Vegas) so I'm still curious as to what's going on. We were planning on both editing portions of the video so it would be nice to know how to make our renders look the same. I prefer the look of the Vegas render but am I doing something wrong? Should it technically not look the way it does?

Password for all the videos is letmein

Post removed by author on complaint from OP.

You and your buddy desperately need door-to-door control over levels, especially when handing off to Premiere, otherwise you'll end up like the ski bum in my narrative. Fortunately, I already thought of this.

I agree with Musicvid on you two agreeing on one NLE to use, we've already illustrated how Premiere does things to your video without you having any input on it, and that is what seems to be the source of your troubles. You can maybe experiment with XML exports of your timeline, and just render everything out in Vegas that he edits in Premiere, but don't expect that to go without headaches either. The rendering will work fine, but you may have issues opening the XML file properly.

With analog TVs almost a thing of the past, and bandwidth increasing rapidly, I'm hoping we soon can move on beyond YUV. I'd much rather still be at 4K in 10 years, but have 12 bit color, 4:4:4 RGB sampling, etc.