Magix Mainconcept AVC render quality problem

EricLNZ wrote on 5/24/2019, 6:08 AM

I've stumbled across a problem with the Mainconcept Blu-ray renders in the MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 templates.

Using the Magix AVC/AAC Blu-ray 1920x1080-50i, 25 Mbps video stream template with 1 pass VBR and the only change being reducing the max bitrate to 35,000,000 (DVDA recompresses if you use 40,000,000 as reported elsewhere) I get noticeable edge shadow when objects move against a clear background.  I'm using the Mainconcept AVC Encode mode CPU processing only.  This is visible when I play the avc file in MPC-HC player and advance frame by frame, or drag the file into a VMS 50p timeline and advance frame by frame.  The shadow, similar to a drop shadow, moves alternatively from behind the object to in front of it.  I took the avc file through to a m2ts file in a Blu-ray iso image using DVDA and the problem still existed.

Rendering with the similar old Mainconcept template (enabled via preferences) does not give the problem nor does rendering with Sony AVC.  So it is perculiar to the new render template.

Two images attached to try and show the problem.  The cyan is moving across covering the red and should have a clean edge.  It does in the original Mainconcept but doesn't in the Magix Mainconcept .

Santa on his sleigh is chasing the title off the screen.  Unfortunately the image may not be large enough to clearly show the edging.

I've also noticed it with occasional shots from my camera.  For example a red banner moving against a grey sky.  The banner had edging like the red colour had bled.

I'd be grateful if someone could check my findings with a simple project .

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/24/2019, 11:24 AM

It looks like Motion Estimation may be different between the encoders.

Since you have generated graphics, see which looks better next to intraframe render, such as all-Intra or Magic RGB.

Since we've got x264 ( thanks to wwaag), I'm interested to see if it can be leveraged to produce compliant, no-recompress Bluray in Architect. Among other advantages, motion estimation is configurable.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/24/2019, 11:18 PM

Thanks @Musicvid I don't have all-Intra or Magic RGB so the best I could do was rendering a short problem section to uncompressed avi. 1080 Top ff 25 fps.

MPC-HC and VLC played the avi file with edge combing, but no trace of shadow. WMP played it clean but struggled with uncompressed avi. Looking at the file info I find it doesn't declare that it's interlaced or progressive so players are left to guess. Dragging the file into a VMS 50 fps timeline and advancing frame by frame shows it is clean. No edge shadow. Similar to Sony AVC and the old MainConcept.

I'll be using the old MainConcept Blu-ray in future, or Sony AVC Blu-ray. With the latter I wonder how long Vegas Pro and VMS will include Sony encoders as Vegas moves further away from Sony.

As for the MainConcept encoder I'm surprised that the MainConcept encoder in the Magix AVC/AAC templates behaves differently to that in the now hidden MainConcept AVC/AAC templates.

Bug or by design? Whichever it's a trap for the unwary.

j-v wrote on 5/25/2019, 3:14 AM

@EricLNZ, with my own footage I don't see what you see with the same renders.

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EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 4:29 AM

@j-v What is your footage? It's generated media that causes the problem. Try moving or sliding a plain solid colour across another one and watch the edge.

j-v wrote on 5/25/2019, 4:32 AM

OK I'll try

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Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoPro Hero7 Hero Black
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home, version 1903 build 18.362, CPU i7 7700HQ, 16 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 430.86 Studio Drivers
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

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nepomuk wrote on 5/25/2019, 5:41 AM

@EricLNZ

This looks to me like frames are getting blended when converted to interlaced (50i). Is your source progressive?
Try to disable (smart) resampling, or set the render quality to draft or preview and see if it makes a difference.

Or are you watching interlaced encoded material on a progressive display without deinterlacing or bobbing? Or does your player blend-deinterlace? Maybe it's just a playback issue.

j-v wrote on 5/25/2019, 5:43 AM

I see no difference.
FHD 50p project in VMS PL 16 of 3 solid colors red, blue and orange with slide and zoom transisions
Rendered to Magix AVC MC, Magix AVC Nvenc and the old MC AVC Blu-ray 1920x1080-50i template with your costumization.
Maybe due to my old and bad eyes, but everywhere I see exactly the same rendered files.
Please check them if you could see something, all 3 rendered files are in my dropbox you can download with these links for 7 days
https://www.dropbox.com/s/auuy6jetgy6dpsu/Test%20EricLNZ%20Magix%20AVC%20MC%20NV%20encoder.avc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/34lfk5m7gw8gjya/Test%20EricLNZ%20Magix%20AVC%20MC.avc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdnej7nxi3nlzri/Test%20EricLNZ%20MC%20AVC%20.avc?dl=0

met vriendelijke groet
Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoPro Hero7 Hero Black
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home, version 1903 build 18.362, CPU i7 7700HQ, 16 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 430.86 Studio Drivers
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

Dutch video tutorials for beginners

My slogan is: BE OR BECOME A STEMCELL DONOR !!!

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:10 AM

@nepomuk it's generated media that causes the problem which is progressive. Yes it does look like an interlacing problem but if so why does it only happen with the newer MainConcept and not the older or Sony AVC Blu-ray?

I'm watching on my pc with players that deinterlace and also a VMS 50 fps timeline which is showing each deinterlaced frame.

nepomuk wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:23 AM

@EricLNZ perhaps you can upload a sample of your source and of your rendered file so we could check what we get and see.

j-v wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:37 AM

 

Yes it does look like an interlacing problem but if so why does it only happen with the newer MainConcept and not the older or Sony AVC Blu-ray?

Now youare talking also about the old Sony AVC template that did not it, I rendered also to that one with this result
https://www.dropbox.com/s/njcke3ix9k33ix8/Test%20EricLNZ%20Sony%20AVC%20.avc?dl=0

 

Last changed by j-v on 5/25/2019, 6:38 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

met vriendelijke groet
Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoPro Hero7 Hero Black
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home, version 1903 build 18.362, CPU i7 7700HQ, 16 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 430.86 Studio Drivers
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

Dutch video tutorials for beginners

My slogan is: BE OR BECOME A STEMCELL DONOR !!!

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:45 AM

@j-v Thanks. Bringing your files into a VMS 1080 50p project so I can check each deinterlaced frame, frame by frame I get:

Test EricLNZ Magix AVC MC NV encoder.avc - very jerky as the frames are jumping forwards then backwards. The file properties state it's Lower Field first. When I altered this to Upper field first it played perfectly. So no edge shadow problem with this file but it's incorrectly stating it's field order.

Test EricLNZ Magix AVC MC - Confirms my problem as it has edge shadow which is darker every other frame and lighter in between. I've attached a close screen grab to show it. My preview was on Best Half.

Test EricLNZ MC AVC - plays okay, no problem with any edging.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:52 AM

Now youare talking also about the old Sony AVC template that did not it, I rendered also to that one with this result
https://www.dropbox.com/s/njcke3ix9k33ix8/Test%20EricLNZ%20Sony%20AVC%20.avc?dl=0

Yes, the Sony AVC behaves the same as the old MainConcept. It's just the new Magix MainConcept that is giving the problem. I merely mentioned the Sony AVC as an example of correct behaviour.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:57 AM

@EricLNZ perhaps you can upload a sample of your source and of your rendered file so we could check what we get and see.

My source is generated media. Use Media Generators, Solid Color and try a similar exercise to j-v.

j-v wrote on 5/25/2019, 7:08 AM

Test EricLNZ Magix AVC MC - Confirms my problem as it has edge shadow which is darker every other frame and lighter in between. I've attached a close screen grab to show it. My preview was on Best Half.

I looked it on the full preview on my 4K computer screen and there I see no ghost but for me it looks the result of the interlaced frames because I watch it on a computerscreen that do not de_interlace like a TV screen.
Sadly I cannot compare it to anyting else, because since 7 years I don't use Interlaced video anymore and the same with DVD or Blueray exports. All my export in those last years goes in progressive Mp4 and those files play everywhere where I want.

met vriendelijke groet
Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoPro Hero7 Hero Black
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home, version 1903 build 18.362, CPU i7 7700HQ, 16 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 430.86 Studio Drivers
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

Dutch video tutorials for beginners

My slogan is: BE OR BECOME A STEMCELL DONOR !!!

nepomuk wrote on 5/25/2019, 7:34 AM

@EricLNZ did you try to set the render quality to draft or preview instead of good or best? I think to remember that the conversion from progressive to interlaced is done differently. The lower quality settings may produce better results without ghosts or whatever.

Musicvid wrote on 5/25/2019, 5:08 PM

@EricLNZ

By all-Intra I meant XAVC-I.

Note to self: Call things by their right name, not their generic name.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 6:57 PM

@EricLNZ did you try to set the render quality to draft or preview instead of good or best? I think to remember that the conversion from progressive to interlaced is done differently. The lower quality settings may produce better results without ghosts or whatever.

@nepomuk Yes, you are correct. The shadow disappears with preview and draft. Unfortunately it's not a satisfactory workaround as I don't want the rest of my project rendered at a low quality.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/25/2019, 7:26 PM

@EricLNZ

By all-Intra I meant XAVC-I.

Note to self: Call things by their right name, not their generic name.

@Musicvid VMSPlat 16 has templates for XAVC Intra, XAVC Long and XAVC S Long. There's none for XAVC-1. Rendering with XAVC Intra I made a 1080 50i MXF file which DVDA wouldn't accept.

Musicvid wrote on 5/25/2019, 8:50 PM

Rendering with XAVC Intra I made a 1080 50i MXF file which DVDA wouldn't accept.

Good to know.

nepomuk wrote on 5/26/2019, 3:23 AM

No surprise to me that draft or preview removed the ghosts. I had similar issues with natural movies when converting from progressive to interlaced. VMS 16 Platinum always produced ugly ghosts (blended fields) using their standard AVCHD 1080i (archiving) template. The only way to avoid the blends was to render with Preview or Draft quality, because it switches certain "smart" things off related to the creation of the blended fields with the intention of improving the smoothness during playback.
I wouldn't be much concerned about the final quality with the Preview preset. It may be much better at the end than what you get for this kind of footage with the "Best" setting.

I reported my issue to MAGIX. After getting some unrelated robot proposals I got a reply (after weeks eventually) that they forwarded the problem to the development team …....…. silence since.

I don't know whether your problem has the same roots. You could inspect the fields with avisynth or ffmpeg and see whether they are clean or not.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/26/2019, 3:27 AM

@j-v Try dragging the avc files into a VMS project set at 50fps with Deinterlace method Interpolate fields. You should then see all frames deinterlaced.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/26/2019, 3:46 AM

@nepomuk Your AVCHD comments are interesting. I also have my "problem" videos rendered as AVCHD, using Sony AVC as that's the only AVCHD template available. There's no MainConcept AVCHD.

I haven't had the shadowing problems with them but only one was done with VMS16. The others are VMS15 or earlier. I've just checked the VMS16 one to be sure. My Magix MainConcept Blu-ray version of this video does show the problem in a couple of places where I use a transition wiping across the screen. It's hardly noticeable so isn't on the list of videos to be re-rendered with the old MainConcept encoder. But in light of your comments I will be keeping a close watch on my AVCHD renders.

nepomuk wrote on 5/26/2019, 5:55 AM

Out of curiosity I inspected now with Avisynth the fields of j-v's 4 rendered files.
I can confirm that 3 files are ok while the file MAGIX AVC MC shows exactly the ugly blends. Don't know what the MAGIX guys did and why …… :-(

Even more surprising/confusing to me is that MAGIX AVC MC NV encoder looks ok while MAGIX AVC MC produces blended crap. Maybe the blended mess is not too annoying when watching real-time on TV. Still, personally I hate it and would never accept it like this.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/26/2019, 6:56 AM

Presumably the problem(s) will also occur in Vegas Pro as it uses the same encoders. Could someone confirm and then perhaps we could get Nick to add it to his Vegas pro bug list.