HDR10 container format is the same as uhd --REC 2020

EOTF: SMPTE ST 2084

Color Sub-sampling: 4:2:0 (for compressed video sources)

Bit Depth: 10 bit

Color Primaries:  ITU-R BT.2020

Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL

It may be packed flat and unpacked with special metadata, like protune or s- log.

It's reasonable to assume that HEVC will be a popular delivery medium.

I edit in HDR10 exclusively (for my own use) in Resolve, and have yet to find a suitable delivery format - so far, after having rendered my edits, I play them from within Resolve through my Decklink card and on my "edit" monitor - the Samsung 49KS8000 SUHD. But of course it would be great to burn it to a BD, or at least store on an external drive playable directly on my Samsung through USB. Unfortunately, this limits bitrate too much - so it would seam the only solution is playing back from my PC HDD. BUT I didn't find a software player which would carry the HDR10 flag....

Piotr

I notice Vegas 14 now encodes to HEVC, but I don't see anywhere that we can specify bit depth, so I assume that encoder can only do 8bit?

Unfortunately, yes... One of the most important diasppointments with VP 14!

Piotr

Well, Magix (hopefully one of you sees this), HDR is going mainstream. Get ahead of the curve! Those of us in the business who like to stay a step ahead of the competition rely on it! 

In the mean time, has anybody figured out a workflow to go 10bit out of vegas and into an app that can encode to 10bit HEVC? I wouldn't mind doing some experiments on formats any of these new HDR capable game consoles (Xbox One S, PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio, etc.) can play. Those will end up being the Trojan horses when it comes to HDR content delivery, easiest to get content to as you can delivery via stream, DLNA, disc or USB media, and there will be tens of millions of them in the wild by next Christmas. 

I think Magix is aware of these developments - HDR but codecs that will be required for UHD and HDR. It will take some time until HDR will become mainstream really. To my opinion it is possible to edit HDR in Vegas 14 today. I do that all the time with my FS7 footage, as Piotr knows. But what I do today is to grade this s-log3 footage with up to 14 steps to rec 709 today. So that are early steps.

What we miss today are HDR capable monitors for our computers. Sure one can use UHD TVs, but I hope that those monitors will arrive next year on the market. And I also think that the HEVC encoder in Vegas is an 8bit encoder today. Sure there are possiblities to render to 10bit UHD from Vegas, either with Cineform or XAVC I or the Sony YUV. If one wishes to use an HEVC encoder that allws to render to 10bit and also BT.2020 today, a possible choice is TMPGenc Video Mastering 6

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw6.html

that allows both for H.264 but also H.265 10bit and BT2020. There is also SMPTE ST 2084 in TMPGenc 6 but I have not tested that and are not familiar with the details yet. 

I assume that they will continue to develop Vegas 14 in that direction in the future. So the HEVC encoder in Vegas was a first step only hopefully. But this will take some time I think.

Does ACES & ACEScc for HDR workflow? If they are, last year user Balazer has tried experimenting for this one, but it's a bit complex - as they must use compatible plugins that can work with wider dynamic range (so far I read it).

Read here for more:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/aces-and-acescc-intro-and-tutorial-for-vegas-pro--100416/

I did try ACEScc in Resolve, but concluded RCM (Resolve Color Management) is by far the best color space/gamma conversion tool (for my FS7 S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3 footage) than Aces cc and LUTs. Results with RCM are far more consistent, and grading is easier. As to Vegas Pro, unfortunately we only have ACES and/or LUTS - the former requirers grading in 32bit-float precision while the latter needs LUT plugins; both slowing down timeline playback to an unaxeptable extent. Another of the main reasons for my disappointment with VP14 :(

Piotr

I can understand that Vegas never did those things and that this version update was mainly trying to fix issues that had been ignored for so long under Sony, but I would hope that the next version of Vegas would be made with HDR TVs in mind. In the next few years our consumers will be demanding better color on their delivery product, and in highly competitive markets like mine (music festival video production) where everyone is always trying to come up with an edge over the other, I'd like to know my NLE of choice is ahead of the curve when it comes to what tech is available for home use. UHD BD authoring, HDR streaming format support, VR, etc. should all be there. 

If my game console can play it, my NLE should be able to edit and encode it to those same formats. 

You are right. The development of Vegas was stopped in the last 1-2 years with SCS, and that is why there are still some open points that must be corrected. GPU support for example. SCS started to develop the Catalyst, a tool that is great for FS7 footage. But I think the development of Vegas will continue now again I think, even if there is no development roadmap that has been published yet. 

After getting some help from the Resolve Forum (BM site), I finally deised a good way of rendering 10-bit h.265 clips playable on my Samsung SUHD TV in HDR10. They can be played back in all HDR10 glory either from and exteranl drive, attached directly to the TV, or from my PC using the "cast" functionality...

What a bummer though - these files are NOT even readable by VP 14 !!! So if I wanted to load the clips and do my final edit and sound in VP 14, it's currently impossible :( MAGIX - if you read this, please add 10-bit HEVC full support to Vegas Pro!!!

Piotr

First - I hope that Magixwil listen to this requirement, Piotr.

Second - I think it is really a bad idea to use H.265 to as a transfer format between whatever tools. H.265 seems to me to be more a final delivery format, event if there may be other opinions due to good error correction possiblities today. I would tend to use for an transfer between tools like Resolve or Vegas 10bit codecs like Cineform, XAVC I or even uncompressed.

Yes - h.265 IS indeed my final format. But VP still being a better tool for the final touches, and mainly for audio, I'd like to be able to do it. As simple as that - even if I only want to load and play back my HEVC clips (already encoded with a rather low bitrate, so preferably only smart-rendered, and even that only if necessary). And while watching, do my audio mix (music, voice overs etc.)...

Piotr

PS. Oh, and Woldfgang - I'd love to return to VP with more than "final touches", but will NOT do it untill timeline GPU acceleration is fixed finally :(

I am aware that the GPU acceleration should be improved, and I hope they will do so. Beside that - knowing this situation it was a very clear decision for me to invest in the AMD R9 390X 8GB, what works both with Vegas but also with Resolve in a great way. The selection of hardware components should not separated from the software that will be used.

But that does not add a lot to this discussion. I only think that if you intend to run a roundtrip workflow between Resolve and Vegas, there are better solutions for the selection of the transfer format between the tools then H.265. That is what I think.

Wolfgang - no offense, but you've become a much less objective person than you used to be :) OF course, h.265 is not a format for roundtriping - my post was merely for expressing my silent wish to MAGIX for full support of the format in VP 14. Meaning also ability to render to it in 10 bit (currently only 8-bit files are output), and - who knows - maybe even (optionally) inserting HDR10 flags into h.265 files? VP would then take the upper hand over Resolve, which can't do it by itself, either - I'm encoding mine using ffmpeg... Cheers!

Piotr

Wolfgang - no offense, but you've become a much less objective person than you used to be :)

?

 

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:-)

Was this ever addressed in subsequent updates? I see HEVC encoding has a 10 bit mode, would enabling that and setting the color space in the encode settings to Rec2020 ST2084 (1000nits) do the trick? I do not yet have a HDR capable display to test it on myself. I just bought a GH5 and was curious to test the new HDR mode it has with the latest firmware (Hybrid Log Gamma) on my friend's HDR set, but I want to make sure I get the encoding end right first before I try.

Up to now Vegas is not HDR ready really. It is prepared for HDR - given some templates and encoders. I think an HLG output is not foreseen. And no metadata are in the rendered footage by now. So sure, you can create some rec2020 footage but you will have to user other tools for metadata, or switch the HDR TV manuelly to HDR.

The encoder part is the important part... I'm wondering if you use the Intel HEVC encoder, flip it to 10 bit, go into settings and set the color profile to REC2020 ST2084 (1000 nits), will the HEVC file have the HDR flag or not? Will it cause an HDR TV to kick into HDR mode?

Megabit, can you test this, since they did add 10 bit functionality to the HEVC codec?

See above - no metadata are generated yet for that.

Bummer. Get on it, Magix! You can buy a good 55'' Dolby Vision TV for $450 now. I think that the price barrier has been overcome enough to warrant adding HDR encoding functionality to Vegas Pro. These people buying these sets are going to want content that takes advantage of them, and to be able to deliver it to my clients will become a nice selling point. I'm about to jump on the HDR bandwagon myself.