Producing Content for HDR TV

fr0sty wrote on 10/21/2016, 9:14 PM

I know the install base is too small to worry about it now, but as HDR sets start to get into more homes, what content delivery codecs are there to use for mass distribution of HDR content? I know vegas supports a few 10bit codecs, which should give the color range needed if I did my homework on it right, but I doubt those are widely compatible with playback devices. Is there a codec that has been or is being developed for HDR distribution like MPEG2/4 is for HD and 4K? There has to be something, with Netflix and such streaming it now. Is Vegas capable of outputting to that format if so? Will any camera that shoots 10-bit video be good enough?

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/21/2016, 9:16 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

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Comments

ushere wrote on 10/22/2016, 2:15 AM

depends on whether you're doing it independently or looking to sell to a broadcaster. if the latter THEY will tell you EXACTLY what they want. 

Musicvid wrote on 10/22/2016, 6:04 AM

HDR10 container format is the same as uhd --REC 2020

EOTF: SMPTE ST 2084

Color Sub-sampling: 4:2:0 (for compressed video sources)

Bit Depth: 10 bit

Color Primaries:  ITU-R BT.2020

Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL

It may be packed flat and unpacked with special metadata, like protune or s- log.

It's reasonable to assume that HEVC will be a popular delivery medium.

megabit wrote on 10/22/2016, 6:51 AM

I edit in HDR10 exclusively (for my own use) in Resolve, and have yet to find a suitable delivery format - so far, after having rendered my edits, I play them from within Resolve through my Decklink card and on my "edit" monitor - the Samsung 49KS8000 SUHD. But of course it would be great to burn it to a BD, or at least store on an external drive playable directly on my Samsung through USB. Unfortunately, this limits bitrate too much - so it would seam the only solution is playing back from my PC HDD. BUT I didn't find a software player which would carry the HDR10 flag....

Piotr

Last changed by megabit on 10/22/2016, 6:54 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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fr0sty wrote on 10/22/2016, 9:45 AM

I notice Vegas 14 now encodes to HEVC, but I don't see anywhere that we can specify bit depth, so I assume that encoder can only do 8bit?

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AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

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ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

megabit wrote on 10/22/2016, 10:26 AM

Unfortunately, yes... One of the most important diasppointments with VP 14!

Piotr

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

fr0sty wrote on 10/22/2016, 10:36 AM

Well, Magix (hopefully one of you sees this), HDR is going mainstream. Get ahead of the curve! Those of us in the business who like to stay a step ahead of the competition rely on it! 

In the mean time, has anybody figured out a workflow to go 10bit out of vegas and into an app that can encode to 10bit HEVC? I wouldn't mind doing some experiments on formats any of these new HDR capable game consoles (Xbox One S, PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio, etc.) can play. Those will end up being the Trojan horses when it comes to HDR content delivery, easiest to get content to as you can delivery via stream, DLNA, disc or USB media, and there will be tens of millions of them in the wild by next Christmas. 

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/22/2016, 10:44 AM, changed a total of 6 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/22/2016, 11:38 AM

I think Magix is aware of these developments - HDR but codecs that will be required for UHD and HDR. It will take some time until HDR will become mainstream really. To my opinion it is possible to edit HDR in Vegas 14 today. I do that all the time with my FS7 footage, as Piotr knows. But what I do today is to grade this s-log3 footage with up to 14 steps to rec 709 today. So that are early steps.

What we miss today are HDR capable monitors for our computers. Sure one can use UHD TVs, but I hope that those monitors will arrive next year on the market. And I also think that the HEVC encoder in Vegas is an 8bit encoder today. Sure there are possiblities to render to 10bit UHD from Vegas, either with Cineform or XAVC I or the Sony YUV. If one wishes to use an HEVC encoder that allws to render to 10bit and also BT.2020 today, a possible choice is TMPGenc Video Mastering 6

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw6.html

that allows both for H.264 but also H.265 10bit and BT2020. There is also SMPTE ST 2084 in TMPGenc 6 but I have not tested that and are not familiar with the details yet. 

I assume that they will continue to develop Vegas 14 in that direction in the future. So the HEVC encoder in Vegas was a first step only hopefully. But this will take some time I think.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

set wrote on 10/22/2016, 3:50 PM

Does ACES & ACEScc for HDR workflow? If they are, last year user Balazer has tried experimenting for this one, but it's a bit complex - as they must use compatible plugins that can work with wider dynamic range (so far I read it).

Read here for more:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/aces-and-acescc-intro-and-tutorial-for-vegas-pro--100416/

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megabit wrote on 10/22/2016, 11:40 PM

I did try ACEScc in Resolve, but concluded RCM (Resolve Color Management) is by far the best color space/gamma conversion tool (for my FS7 S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3 footage) than Aces cc and LUTs. Results with RCM are far more consistent, and grading is easier. As to Vegas Pro, unfortunately we only have ACES and/or LUTS - the former requirers grading in 32bit-float precision while the latter needs LUT plugins; both slowing down timeline playback to an unaxeptable extent. Another of the main reasons for my disappointment with VP14 :(

Piotr

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

fr0sty wrote on 10/23/2016, 12:05 AM

I can understand that Vegas never did those things and that this version update was mainly trying to fix issues that had been ignored for so long under Sony, but I would hope that the next version of Vegas would be made with HDR TVs in mind. In the next few years our consumers will be demanding better color on their delivery product, and in highly competitive markets like mine (music festival video production) where everyone is always trying to come up with an edge over the other, I'd like to know my NLE of choice is ahead of the curve when it comes to what tech is available for home use. UHD BD authoring, HDR streaming format support, VR, etc. should all be there. 

If my game console can play it, my NLE should be able to edit and encode it to those same formats. 

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/23/2016, 1:58 AM, changed a total of 4 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/23/2016, 1:44 AM

You are right. The development of Vegas was stopped in the last 1-2 years with SCS, and that is why there are still some open points that must be corrected. GPU support for example. SCS started to develop the Catalyst, a tool that is great for FS7 footage. But I think the development of Vegas will continue now again I think, even if there is no development roadmap that has been published yet. 

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 10/23/2016, 1:47 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

megabit wrote on 10/26/2016, 5:29 AM

After getting some help from the Resolve Forum (BM site), I finally deised a good way of rendering 10-bit h.265 clips playable on my Samsung SUHD TV in HDR10. They can be played back in all HDR10 glory either from and exteranl drive, attached directly to the TV, or from my PC using the "cast" functionality...

What a bummer though - these files are NOT even readable by VP 14 !!! So if I wanted to load the clips and do my final edit and sound in VP 14, it's currently impossible :( MAGIX - if you read this, please add 10-bit HEVC full support to Vegas Pro!!!

Piotr

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/26/2016, 5:41 AM

First - I hope that Magixwil listen to this requirement, Piotr.

Second - I think it is really a bad idea to use H.265 to as a transfer format between whatever tools. H.265 seems to me to be more a final delivery format, event if there may be other opinions due to good error correction possiblities today. I would tend to use for an transfer between tools like Resolve or Vegas 10bit codecs like Cineform, XAVC I or even uncompressed.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

megabit wrote on 10/26/2016, 5:47 AM

Yes - h.265 IS indeed my final format. But VP still being a better tool for the final touches, and mainly for audio, I'd like to be able to do it. As simple as that - even if I only want to load and play back my HEVC clips (already encoded with a rather low bitrate, so preferably only smart-rendered, and even that only if necessary). And while watching, do my audio mix (music, voice overs etc.)...

Piotr

PS. Oh, and Woldfgang - I'd love to return to VP with more than "final touches", but will NOT do it untill timeline GPU acceleration is fixed finally :(

Last changed by megabit on 10/26/2016, 5:51 AM, changed a total of 3 times.

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/26/2016, 6:02 AM

I am aware that the GPU acceleration should be improved, and I hope they will do so. Beside that - knowing this situation it was a very clear decision for me to invest in the AMD R9 390X 8GB, what works both with Vegas but also with Resolve in a great way. The selection of hardware components should not separated from the software that will be used.

But that does not add a lot to this discussion. I only think that if you intend to run a roundtrip workflow between Resolve and Vegas, there are better solutions for the selection of the transfer format between the tools then H.265. That is what I think.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

megabit wrote on 10/26/2016, 6:20 AM

Wolfgang - no offense, but you've become a much less objective person than you used to be :) OF course, h.265 is not a format for roundtriping - my post was merely for expressing my silent wish to MAGIX for full support of the format in VP 14. Meaning also ability to render to it in 10 bit (currently only 8-bit files are output), and - who knows - maybe even (optionally) inserting HDR10 flags into h.265 files? VP would then take the upper hand over Resolve, which can't do it by itself, either - I'm encoding mine using ffmpeg... Cheers!

Piotr

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/26/2016, 6:25 AM

Wolfgang - no offense, but you've become a much less objective person than you used to be :)

?

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

megabit wrote on 10/26/2016, 6:41 AM

 

?

:-)

AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

fr0sty wrote on 10/12/2017, 5:02 AM

Was this ever addressed in subsequent updates? I see HEVC encoding has a 10 bit mode, would enabling that and setting the color space in the encode settings to Rec2020 ST2084 (1000nits) do the trick? I do not yet have a HDR capable display to test it on myself. I just bought a GH5 and was curious to test the new HDR mode it has with the latest firmware (Hybrid Log Gamma) on my friend's HDR set, but I want to make sure I get the encoding end right first before I try.

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/12/2017, 5:09 AM, changed a total of 3 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/12/2017, 9:24 AM

Up to now Vegas is not HDR ready really. It is prepared for HDR - given some templates and encoders. I think an HLG output is not foreseen. And no metadata are in the rendered footage by now. So sure, you can create some rec2020 footage but you will have to user other tools for metadata, or switch the HDR TV manuelly to HDR.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

fr0sty wrote on 10/12/2017, 12:46 PM

The encoder part is the important part... I'm wondering if you use the Intel HEVC encoder, flip it to 10 bit, go into settings and set the color profile to REC2020 ST2084 (1000 nits), will the HEVC file have the HDR flag or not? Will it cause an HDR TV to kick into HDR mode?

Megabit, can you test this, since they did add 10 bit functionality to the HEVC codec?

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/12/2017, 12:49 PM, changed a total of 5 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/12/2017, 1:13 PM

See above - no metadata are generated yet for that.

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 10/12/2017, 1:14 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

fr0sty wrote on 10/12/2017, 1:18 PM

Bummer. Get on it, Magix! You can buy a good 55'' Dolby Vision TV for $450 now. I think that the price barrier has been overcome enough to warrant adding HDR encoding functionality to Vegas Pro. These people buying these sets are going to want content that takes advantage of them, and to be able to deliver it to my clients will become a nice selling point. I'm about to jump on the HDR bandwagon myself.

Last changed by fr0sty on 10/12/2017, 1:19 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

AVsupport wrote on 10/13/2017, 2:33 AM

Let's just wait another couple of weeks for the next Pro Camera Show, and I bet you there will be another new HDR capable cameras and displays announced, from Sony most likely as the support is already there (recent launch: 3 new camcorders) and others that will follow suit. 'HLG' being the latest 'slack-off' straight to consumer format, even though not intended for grading, but if anyone asks me where I want to see Vegas to go: edit & adjust LOG colour, gamma, ; edit,save 3dLUTs, HDR correction for shadows/highlights, full HEVC support..

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

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