Rendering the video exploded the file size by TEN times!

ColeD wrote on 3/17/2022, 8:32 PM

I generally just want to know if I did something wrong here.

The original file (M4V format) was 736 MB. It was shot in 60 FPS and 3840 by 2160. I rendered it in XVAC S Long MP4 format after adjusting the settings to meet the aforementioned numbers. All I did was add some music and fade-in/fade-out effects--nothing else. The video ended up rendering to be 6.96 gigabytes.

Is this normal? If not, what was the better option to go with? I feel like this can't be the way it's supposed to be, so I'd like to know if there's a rendering format that retains the exact frame rate and resolution without expanding the file size so astronomically.

Comments

RogerS wrote on 3/17/2022, 9:10 PM

Render using a more reasonable format like MagixAVC with Mainconcept. Use default bitrates and try the render again.

Musicvid wrote on 3/17/2022, 9:18 PM

The original file (M4V format) was 736 MB. It was shot in 60 FPS and 3840 by 2160.

Sounds reasonable. So what are the File Properties?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

I rendered it in XVAC S Long MP4 format...The video ended up rendering to be 6.96 gigabytes. Is this normal?

For XAVC? Yes, that size is entirely normal and hardly gaspworthy, since you rendered to a lower-compression Intermediate Format. As time goes on, you will learn to distinguish between Acquisition, Intermediate, and Delivery Formats. Until then, stick with the most common 4k delivery codec, which is Magix HEVC. With that, you will produce files of comparable size and quality to your originals. With an HEVC Hardware Codec, you will produce even smaller, but lower quality files. There is always a tradeoff.

Welcome to the Vegas Pro peer support area.

Here's some basic stuff for you.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/speaking-good-video-a-beginner-s-guide--104463/

ColeD wrote on 3/17/2022, 9:45 PM

Thank

The original file (M4V format) was 736 MB. It was shot in 60 FPS and 3840 by 2160.

Sounds reasonable. So what are the File Properties?

For XAVC? Yes, that size is entirely normal and hardly gaspworthy, since you rendered to a lower-compression Intermediate Format. As time goes on, you will learn to distinguish between Acquisition, Intermediate, and Delivery Formats. Until then, stick with the most common 4k delivery codec, which is Magix HEVC. With that, you will produce files of comparable size and quality to your originals. With an HEVC Hardware Codec, you will produce even smaller, but lower quality files. There is always a tradeoff.

 

I forgot to mention I'm using Vegas Pro 13, and I don't see Magix HEVC. What's the best format available in that version?

Here's what I got from that program you linked:

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\ehdur\OneDrive\Desktop\Film Projects\Last Video\Last Video.m4v
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size                                : 736 MiB
Duration                                 : 5 min 5 s
Overall bit rate                         : 20.2 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
Writing application                      : HandBrake 1.5.1 2022011000

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4
Format settings                          : CABAC / 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 1 frame
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 5 min 5 s
Bit rate                                 : 20.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Variable
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Minimum frame rate                       : 59.920 FPS
Maximum frame rate                       : 59.960 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.040
Stream size                              : 730 MiB (99%)
Writing library                          : x264 core 164 r3065 ae03d92
Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=hex / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=600 / keyint_min=60 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=30 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=22.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=20000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / filler=0 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 5 min 5 s
Source duration                          : 5 min 5 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 161 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate                               : 43.066 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 5.87 MiB (1%)
Source stream size                       : 5.87 MiB (1%)
Title                                    : Stereo
Default                                  : Yes
Alternate group                          : 1
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-03-17 19:14:24
mdhd_Duration                            : 305784

RogerS wrote on 3/17/2022, 10:10 PM

Try SonyAVC, it's what I used pre-Magix days.

Musicvid wrote on 3/17/2022, 10:55 PM

You should upgrade Vegas when you are able to.

ColeD wrote on 3/18/2022, 12:06 AM

Thanks, this has all been very useful advice. Just one more thing: two of you mentioned Magix AVC and Magix HEVC as a good rendering format to use. What is the difference between them? I'm uploading the video to YouTube, btw.

RogerS wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:03 AM

Perhaps read up on HEVC (h.265) vs AVC (h.264). HEVC is a newer compression scheme that yields far smaller file sizes for the same visual quality but requires more processing power for playback. AVC works on just about any device from the last decade. MagixAVC/HEVC can use GPU hardware encoders (VCE, NVENC, QSV) and speed up rendering time compared to SonyAVC.

For YouTube HEVC uploads will be faster, though it will accept many different formats. For what it's worth YouTube recommends AVC.

Former user wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:05 AM

@ColeD Hi, AVC H.264 has been around for yrs & most programs handle it without problems, HEVC H.265 is a newer version designed to be able to keep the file size down of bigger videos like 8k but keep the quality of 8k, but some programs struggle a bit with it, i avoid it at the moment but i think that HEVC will become the normal slowly, if you set your phone to record 'HD' it will prob record in HEVC. there's lot's more to it so you're better off Googling HEVC vs AVC,

3POINT wrote on 3/18/2022, 5:41 AM

@ColeD you're quite limited using VP13 to edit and export 4k. I'm not sure if Voukoder is available for VP13. Definitely the tool Vegas2Handbrake would work but is quite difficult to install. Probably the easiest way is to upgrade to VP19 as already proposed.

RogerS wrote on 3/18/2022, 6:25 AM

Voukoder works from version 12. Just install the connector and program if desired. https://www.voukoder.org/forum/thread/783-downloads-instructions/

Musicvid wrote on 3/18/2022, 6:57 AM

Thanks, this has all been very useful advice. Just one more thing: two of you mentioned Magix AVC and Magix HEVC as a good rendering format to use. What is the difference between them? I'm uploading the video to YouTube, btw.

HEVC has higher compression resulting in smaller files than AVC, but it takes longer to render. There is always a tradeoff (do I hear an echo?)

ColeD wrote on 3/18/2022, 10:46 AM

I'm gonna upgrade to a newer version and start rendering in HEVC. I appreciate all the responses, you can consider my problem solved!

3POINT wrote on 3/18/2022, 11:28 AM

@ColeD reminder HEVC is not supported by every device. You didn't mention where want to play your video. For universal use I would suggest AVC instead of HEVC, nothing wrong with AVC, quality is the same, the filesize is just larger and is rendered faster.

When it's about top quality at smallest filesize, I would definitely take a look at Voukoder for Vegas. With Voukoder you have also the option rendering AVC or HEVC.

john_dennis wrote on 3/18/2022, 12:56 PM

@ColeD

At the risk of raining on this parade, your UHD source video bit rate was a little weak for all but "talking heads" material.

YouTube Upload Specs

Your Source

Bit rate                                 : 20.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                  : 0.040

 

ColeD wrote on 3/18/2022, 12:59 PM

@ColeD

At the risk of raining on this parade, your UHD source video bit rate was a little weak for all but "talking heads" material.

YouTube Upload Specs

Your Source

Bit rate                                 : 20.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                  : 0.040

 

Can you explain what effect this has? I use my iPhone 12 to record video btw. I don't have a fancy camera and I don't stream.

@ColeD reminder HEVC is not supported by every device. You didn't mention where want to play your video.

YouTube.

john_dennis wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:17 PM

@ColeD

"I use my iPhone 12 to record video"

You appear to have run the iPhone 12 video through Handbrake and the...

Encoding settings                        : crf=22.0

that you chose would be more appropriate for final render than re-encoding for further editing in a nonlinear editor.

john_dennis wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:38 PM

@ColeD

You might save yourself a step or two and improve your video if you looked at an application like FimicPro for the iPhone.

Also, memorize every word this man writes.

https://tubularinsights.com/secret-encoding-web-video/

Disclaimer

I own iDevices, but don't use them to shoot video because I use cameras. No one can stop family members from using them and sending the video to me for processing, though.

ColeD wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:48 PM

@ColeD

"I use my iPhone 12 to record video"

You appear to have run the iPhone 12 video through Handbrake and the...

Encoding settings                        : crf=22.0

that you chose would be more appropriate for final render than re-encoding for further editing in a nonlinear editor.

Well, thanks to some earlier advice, I now have a newer version of Vegas Pro which can read MOV files. So I won't even have to deal with Handbrake anymore.

I'll take your advice and install Mavis on my iPhone. I was a bit concerned that the iPhone camera didn't have any real settings beyond FPS and resolution, and I didn't know you could download an app to expand it. This is good.

john_dennis wrote on 3/18/2022, 1:59 PM

Newer versions of Vegas Pro still don't handle variable frame rate video which is typical of many/most phones. If your recording application has an option to force constant frame rate, you'll save yourself some irritation and possibly avoid still having to re-encode in Handbrake. There are other ways to deal with VFR, Happy Otter Tools could handle it within Vegas Pro.

ColeD wrote on 3/18/2022, 2:31 PM

Talking about CRF, say I'm converting a 4K 30 FPS video. What should I enter in this field?

john_dennis wrote on 3/18/2022, 2:45 PM

For intermediate work encoding AVC, CRF 18 could be considered lossless, lower numbers (CRF 0-CRF 17) would not improve results and would likely create larger files than necessary. You might experiment and find that CRF in the range 19-23 might be acceptable to you. There are many other factors that you will eventually consider like Group of Pictures, IPB ratio, ad nausea.

ColeD wrote on 3/19/2022, 8:37 AM

One more question if you don't mind. What is the downside of a lowest possible bit rate? I often read that the lower the bit rate, the better the quality, but there must be some trade-off. Is it just file size?

EricLNZ wrote on 3/19/2022, 5:49 PM

I often read that the lower the bit rate, the better the quality,

That's back to front - the higher the bitrate the better the quality.

ColeD wrote on 3/19/2022, 5:51 PM

I often read that the lower the bit rate, the better the quality,

That's back to front - the higher the bitrate the better the quality.

That's what I meant, my bad. In other words, there's no visual trade-off with the highest possible bit rate. Just a bigger file size and it takes longer. Is that correct?