Requesting Event Level Blend Modes

Musicvid wrote on 8/30/2020, 10:15 AM

Do you have an example of other software that does this?

Marco. wrote on 8/30/2020, 10:21 AM

HitFilm/Vegas Effects offers clip based compositing modes.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 8/30/2020, 10:24 AM

@Musicvid
Premiere Pro,

Hitfilm Express/Pro

You basically right click the video file and you choose the blending of your desire, and it only effects the videos under it as opposed to the entire track.

I was going to say AVID, until I remembered they actually needed a 3rd party plugin to even HAVE a blending mode (which is sad, for a premium product)

@Marco.

HitFilm/Vegas Effects offers clip based compositing modes.

Yes. But that is also a workaround that simply isn't necessary.

I'm talking about VEGAS PRO, natively. In a world where hitfilm and VEGAS effect doesn't exist - it should exist.

Marco. wrote on 8/30/2020, 10:31 AM

It was just the answer to Musicvid's question.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 8/30/2020, 10:32 AM

It was just the answer to Musicvid's question.

Apologies.

michael-harrison wrote on 8/30/2020, 12:25 PM

This would also make using some plugins like Boris Mocha much easier to use with Vegas

joelsonforte.br wrote on 8/30/2020, 3:55 PM

I agree. Blend Mode in event ou media level it would be a nice addition of feature. Adobe Premiere has always worked that way and has always worked well here. I always wanted that in Vegas.

.

lan-mLMC wrote on 8/30/2020, 11:48 PM

It means Event FX must be able to reconize two inputs, one is the event itself, another is all other events below this event.

But current Event FX, Media FX, Track FX, Output FX are all one-input FX.

It need overhoul in Vegas' FX system. It is not optimistic for current new developers to realize it, because new developers are not familar with early FX system codes.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 8/31/2020, 12:18 AM

It means Event FX must be able to reconize two inputs, one is the event itself, another is all other events below this event.

But current Event FX, Media FX, Track FX, Output FX are all one-input FX.

It need overhoul in Vegas' FX system. It is not optimistic for current new developers to realize it, because new developers are not familar with early FX system codes.

I fail to see how it needs an overhaul.

Plus, they already have a "blending mode" in place in the FX list, which deals with luma values or specific color channels.

I believe its called "Mask Generator" (can't load vegas atm)

Marco. wrote on 8/31/2020, 3:05 AM

Yes, most blend modes are straight and simple math and not demanding. Most of the usual Event FX eat much more system power. Also - as Mohammed Anis already mentioned - there are lots of (Event) FX and options which already compose two inputs, like the Event Opacity, Chroma Key FX, PiP FX, Color Corrector Secondary FX (used with alpha), Crop FX, Layer Dimensionality FX, Titles and any kind of input with alpha channel.

I think it would be quite easy to implement such Event based blend modes. It's just adding the blend math at the end of the Event FX pipeline.

lan-mLMC wrote on 8/31/2020, 9:09 PM

there are lots of (Event) FX and options which already compose two inputs, like the Event Opacity, Chroma Key FX, PiP FX, Color Corrector Secondary FX (used with alpha), Crop FX, Layer Dimensionality FX, Titles and any kind of input with alpha channel.

Actually these FX or feature are indeed one-input FX. They just generate alpha channel. This cant be called two-input FX.

The real two-input FX or muli-input FX in VEGAS Pro is :

Transition FX: the two inputs are Event A and Event B. Transition FX merge the two inputs into one output with zoom, slide, rotate, blur, glow etc.

Custom comosite mode FX: one input the track itself, another is all other below tracks. Custom comosite mode FX also merge the two inputs into one output with motion track, corner pin, displacement map, blend mode, glow etc.

So if you want to realize event level blend mode. It means you need to change Event FX system code to something like Custom comosite mode FX which merges two or multi input into one output.

And I think this is a big change to VEGAS Pro code system.

Maybe we can consault some developers like @Vegas_Sebastian .

The perfect mode is After Effects. After Effects' FX can access any other event in the timeline and merge multi inputs to one output. It may be the advantage of composite softwares.

Marco. wrote on 9/1/2020, 2:22 AM

Any time you see more than 1 video it takes at least 2 input values to be calculated. It really doesn't matter if it is based on Event or Track level. It's always being pixel value of input A being calculated with pixel value of input B via a formula x. And in case there is an alpha channel it's even 3 inputs and input A is being calculated with alpha being calculated with input B.

Actually there are Event FX which use same blend modes as the Track Compositing does. There's no need to change the Event FX system. It's exactly the same.

lan-mLMC wrote on 9/1/2020, 3:34 AM

Actually there are Event FX which use same blend modes as the Track Compositing does.

@Marco. Any FX case？ As far as I know, if there are FX that you said, long ago the developers have realized event levels blend mode and event levels Mocha track. But they haven't, blend mode and Mocha Track still need to be applied in track.

It means event fx is fundamentally different from Custom comosite mode FX. Otherwise they have realized event levels blend mode and Mocha track long ago.

Event fx's operating principle is :

(source event) -->(event fx) --> (output frame);

Custom comosite mode FX's operating principle is :

(source track) + (all below tracks's merged frame [if there is no parent tracks] )-->(comosite mode FX, merge the two input frame)-->(output frame)

There are some best evidences :

Event level BCC title studio can't access other tracks' frame as background in Title Studio's own preview window. https://forum.borisfx.com/t/vegas-17-and-bcc-title-studio-composite-over-background/8437 ;

Event level Mocha Pro can't pin other track's event to motion tracking. https://forum.borisfx.com/t/mocha-pro-2020-plugin-not-working-with-vegas-pro-17/6818?u=summaryactivitynot

Event level BCC Primate Studio can't handle background light spill. at 1:08

etc.

All these are because Event FX is one-input FX, so these plugins can't read other track's frame as second input.

Marco. wrote on 9/1/2020, 3:47 AM

"It means event fx is fundamentally different from Custom comosite mode FX."

It's not. It's just a different place within the signal flow where the math is applied. Also Event based blend modes aren't "really" Event FX but simple formula applied after the Event FX chain.

In a post above I said "there are Event FX which use same blend modes as the Track Compositing does" which of course isn't correct this way. These Event FX does not use same blend modes but same blend modes math, which is different again in the way where the math is applied. An Event FX per se can only be targeted to the Takes within the Event onto which the FX is applied. The blend mode need to be applied later, after the Event FX.
So it's not the Event FX itself which needs to include the second input, it's math happening after Event FX. It's all about where exactly same math as used in track blend modes is applied.

Btw - the examples you mentioned above don't fit. A tracker is a completely(!!!) different thing because it is much, much more than just calculating a value of pixel # X of input A with a value of same pixel # X of input B (which is what blend modes do). And to BCC Titling: as mentioned above, the blend math calculation is not to be used within the Event FX but after the complete Event FX chain.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 9/1/2020, 4:04 AM

Actually there are Event FX which use same blend modes as the Track Compositing does.

@Marco. Any FX case？ As far as I know, if there are FX that you said, long ago the developers have realized event levels blend mode and event levels Mocha track. But they haven't, blend mode and Mocha Track still need to be applied in track.

It means event fx is fundamentally different from Custom comosite mode FX. Otherwise they have realized event levels blend mode and Mocha track long ago.

Event fx's operating principle is :

(source event) -->(event fx) --> (output frame);

Custom comosite mode FX's operating principle is :

(source track) + (all below tracks's merged frame [if there is no parent tracks] )-->(comosite mode FX, merge the two input frame)-->(output frame)

There are some best evidences :

Event level BCC title studio can't access other tracks' frame as background in Title Studio's own preview window. https://forum.borisfx.com/t/vegas-17-and-bcc-title-studio-composite-over-background/8437 ;

Event level Mocha Pro can't pin other track's event to motion tracking. https://forum.borisfx.com/t/mocha-pro-2020-plugin-not-working-with-vegas-pro-17/6818?u=summaryactivitynot

Event level BCC Primate Studio can't handle background light spill. at 1:08

etc.

All these are because Event FX is one-input FX, so these plugins can't read other track's frame as second input.

Mate, I'm sorry but you're really complicating the issue.

Blending Modes function on simple maths that EXISTING event-level FX already prove possible. The only variation that needs to be inserted are changes in math operations.

Marco. wrote on 9/1/2020, 5:50 AM

@lan-mLMC
To summarize my last post which I edited a thousand times: You are correct when you say an Event FX does not read a second video input. But this doesn't matter because we don't ask for blend modes being used as Event FX. It's about blend modes being used on an Event base, or more correctly after Event based calculations.

And this then is similar to the way keying works. The Event's key FX itself doesn't use the second video input. It just adds a matte and this then is forwarded to a blend mode which uses input 1, matte and input 2. That blend mode math does not happen within the Event FX.

So using blend modes for Events would not touch the Event FX pipeline in any way. It comes into play after all the Event FX calculation is completed. It's something happening between Event and Track level. Thus no need to change anything in the Event FX system. Use the Event FX system and when its work is done send it to the blend mode system.

VEGASPascal wrote on 9/22/2020, 5:23 AM

Hi community. Interesting feature request. Only one stupid question... Blend modes exist only at track level but what about creating a nested project with the needed events to separate the track blend?

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 9/22/2020, 6:36 AM

Hi community. Interesting feature request. Only one stupid question... Blend modes exist only at track level but what about creating a nested project with the needed events to separate the track blend?

It's not stupid. Thank you for weighing in.

We're aware of this. We're also aware that you can dedicate a track and use Envelops to isolate the blending to a specific time region. Nesting can also do more harm than good when the compositing is complex, as clearly indicated by the notification that sometimes shows up when you do.

The issue is precisely how long it takes to make these adjustments. We find them unnecessary and cumbersome, especially when we need to repeat the process at different intervals.

In Premiere, VEGAS Effects or Hitfilm, its as simple as a right click operation that is isolated to the event/video clip.

We're asking for something even less then that - just make an FX that does this, although, if you can do the right click and select blending mode, that'd be the sweet spot.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 9/22/2020, 6:44 AM

@VEGASPascal Here's a simpler solution. If we can right click and "Surround Event with Envelops", that would speed up the process and accomplish the desired effect.

So essentially, VEGAS would surround the beginning and end of the event with envelops in which the points are drawn automatically. Then we choose the composite mode of the track. So all you're doing is leveraging an existing mechanism, but making it faster instead of asking us to draw points ourselves.

Though that still does leave us with the inability of having multiple blending modes on the same video track, which means we need more video tracks - but hey, I'll take what I can get

VEGASPascal wrote on 9/22/2020, 7:08 AM

Hi community. Interesting feature request. Only one stupid question... Blend modes exist only at track level but what about creating a nested project with the needed events to separate the track blend?

It's not stupid. Thank you for weighing in.

We're aware of this. We're also aware that you can dedicate a track and use Envelops to isolate the blending to a specific time region. Nesting can also do more harm than good when the compositing is complex, as clearly indicated by the notification that sometimes shows up when you do.

The issue is precisely how long it takes to make these adjustments. We find them unnecessary and cumbersome, especially when we need to repeat the process at different intervals.

In Premiere, VEGAS Effects or Hitfilm, its as simple as a right click operation that is isolated to the event/video clip.

We're asking for something even less then that - just make an FX that does this, although, if you can do the right click and select blending mode, that'd be the sweet spot.

So the feature request is:

Create a simple EventFX plugin (like Bump Map FX) with a drop down list for all Blend modes (like in the Composite Mode of the TrackFX) and a short cut at the right click menu to add this general FX with the selected preset at the end of the effect chain... is this correct?

fr0sty wrote on 9/22/2020, 7:52 AM

Sounds like you've got it right.

Mohammed_Anis wrote on 9/22/2020, 8:08 AM

Hi community. Interesting feature request. Only one stupid question... Blend modes exist only at track level but what about creating a nested project with the needed events to separate the track blend?

It's not stupid. Thank you for weighing in.

We're aware of this. We're also aware that you can dedicate a track and use Envelops to isolate the blending to a specific time region. Nesting can also do more harm than good when the compositing is complex, as clearly indicated by the notification that sometimes shows up when you do.

The issue is precisely how long it takes to make these adjustments. We find them unnecessary and cumbersome, especially when we need to repeat the process at different intervals.

In Premiere, VEGAS Effects or Hitfilm, its as simple as a right click operation that is isolated to the event/video clip.

We're asking for something even less then that - just make an FX that does this, although, if you can do the right click and select blending mode, that'd be the sweet spot.

So the feature request is:

Create a simple EventFX plugin (like Bump Map FX) with a drop down list for all Blend modes (like in the Composite Mode of the TrackFX) and a short cut at the right click menu to add this general FX with the selected preset at the end of the effect chain... is this correct?

Yep!

For reference or inspiration:

If you guys make it event based, you've eliminated a considerable amount of clutter from our workspace!

Thank you so much @VEGASPascal

I will take ANY Event Level blending mode function imaginable. ANY.

xcxz-a wrote on 9/22/2020, 12:15 PM

In Premiere, VEGAS Effects or Hitfilm, its as simple as a right click operation

So does Resolve.

Illusion wrote on 9/22/2020, 12:36 PM

@VEGASPascal Here's a simpler solution. If we can right click and "Surround Event with Envelops", that would speed up the process and accomplish the desired effect.

So essentially, VEGAS would surround the beginning and end of the event with envelops in which the points are drawn automatically. Then we choose the composite mode of the track. So all you're doing is leveraging an existing mechanism, but making it faster instead of asking us to draw points ourselves.

Though that still does leave us with the inability of having multiple blending modes on the same video track, which means we need more video tracks - but hey, I'll take what I can get

This already exists in Vegas. I use it all the time to duck my audio. Just do a loop region of your event (double-click on it will do) then simply drag down the envelope, point will be auto-created at the beginning and end of the loop region. In the image below, the envelope points were created automatically as I dragged down the compositing envelope. It will work with any envelope.

You can even adjust how the points are auto-created using "Time selection envelope fade (ms)" in Pref/Editing

See last post here for an example https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/audio-ducking-in-vegas-pro--105601/