Sony AX53

JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/27/2019, 11:24 AM

Hello,

I am just shooting some video on my new sony camcorder. I would say the picture quality is superb. Sony as certainly come a long way since the first camcorders. My only gripe is I shoot at 1920 1080 50p and I seem to notice flickering moire patterns in a few scenes. I know I can drop the sharpness down to 0 but the picture still flickers. I always thought moire was a problem of interlace scanning so i thought progessive would solve these issues. Perhaps interlace was not so bad after all. I have noticed it sometimes shows up with broadcast cameras but to a lesser extent. Some people say to defocus the image slightly or put a soft focus filter over the lens. Would that not be defeating the purpose of the HD picture Quality. I guess this is the only area left for improovement on these super cameras

Comments

j-v wrote on 6/27/2019, 11:34 AM

Why do you put this on this forum?

Do you have a question?

Where do you see your flickering, in the made cam files, in a Vegas Pro program, in a rendered file??????

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JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/27/2019, 1:46 PM

Hello,

Can you advise what forum i should place my question. I see flickering from the direct camcorder files but i do not think they are as bad as the rendered video. Perhaps my render settings could be improoved I dont know. My render settings are 1920 by 1080 progressive Scan. Frame rate 50 double Pal. Please advise.

Marco. wrote on 6/27/2019, 1:55 PM

I think it's fine here in the offtopic area. Moiré usually is caused by a kind of raster overlay and it depends on resolution/display sizes/viewing distance. So did you check on several displays?

JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/27/2019, 4:22 PM

Hi Marco, I have tried it on 2 New LCD tvs a samsung and an LG and I can clearly see moire. I have been trying to get the file to play on my Projector. I succeeded tonight by playing it through a playstation 3. What can I say Wow all the flickering moire patterns have dissapeared. The picture is absolutely jaw droppingly superb. I can now see what this incredible sony camcorder is capable of doing on the right display. You were right it must have been a raster overlay on the other TVs. I read some comments on other forums saying that if you get moire patterns from your camcorder you need to turn the sharpness to 0. and some even suggesting you need to buy a moire filter or soft focus filter to stop the moire showing up. I thought that was a bit of a daft thing to do after investing in HD. Its laughable really. I can see now all these people are wrong. There are no problems with this sony camcorder whatsoever. It is the display you play the file back on which is causing all these effects. I wonder if i need my tvs professionally calibrated for them to display the image properly. I say it again Sony have made an absolutely superb camcorder plus the bonus of the best image stabiliser to boot. Bravo to sony.

john-baker wrote on 6/28/2019, 2:03 PM

@JUSTIN-JOHNS

Hi

Moire is caused by fine patterns interacting with way video is recorded ie line scan, and also the device played back on, as you have found, it also occurs in still images.

Fine patterns - in my experience (same camera) can be anything eg roof tiles, leaf patterns, eg fern leaves, striped shirts or objects and can be very difficult to avoid.

HTH

John EB

 

Last changed by john-baker on 6/28/2019, 2:06 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Matthias-Claflin wrote on 6/28/2019, 2:42 PM

Does this happen when recording 4k? I always had issues with DSLRs and moire and seem to remember people saying that it was at least partly due to the compression (similar to aliasing?). I could be way off on this, but I would still check and see if you have the same problem in 4k.

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JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/28/2019, 3:14 PM

Hello,Yes it seems to show up on 4K too. Perhaps to a lesser extent. I have not really tested it much because i am not interested in 4K. The picture quality at 1080 is absolutly superb on my projector absolutely no moire or I have not noticed any anyway. If i play the same file on the TV moire rears its ugly head on roof tiles especially and lots of trees where the fine detail of the leaves seems to create interference on my TVs. The moire pattern flickers too. Like the picture is pumping.

john-baker wrote on 6/28/2019, 3:39 PM

@JUSTIN-JOHNS@JUSTIN-JOHNS

Hi

. . . . Does this happen when recording 4k? . . . issues with DSLRs and moire and seem to remember people saying that it was at least partly due to the compression . . . .

Yes it happens at any size recording whether it is 8k, 6k 4k etc.

Moire has nothing to do with compression - see this article for a detailed explanation of why it occurs.

The compression issue you often get is 'artifacts', sometimes called blockiness, the higher the compression the more likely they are to appear.

. . . . If i play the same file on the TV moire is in nearly every scene It not only shows moire interference but it flickers quite a bit too . . . .

This would suggest that the source video is recorded as interleaved and the exported file is progressive, if so then try exporting as interleaved and playing this on the TV - or - the TV's native resolution is not the same as the video

. . . . I guess TV technology needs to catch up with what these files are capable of displaying. . . . .

Mine play OK on 4K and Full HD with no flickering, moire cannot be avoided in the situations I mentioned above, additionally some TV's are better at reducing moire then others.

John EB

Last changed by john-baker on 6/28/2019, 3:41 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/28/2019, 4:06 PM

hi John, I have played the source file and the rendered file to the tv. I still get intererference either way. Perhaps i just need higher quality tvs. I have not tried OLED

Musicvid wrote on 6/28/2019, 5:44 PM

Please post your MediaInfo properties and upload a source sample (not YouTube) per the instructions here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

What one calls "moire'" may not be anything like that, at all.

Even in the Off-Topic Forum we prefer fact-finding to blind speculation, right @john-baker ??

Interleaved audio has nothing to do with moire'. Instead of "suggesting" the source file is "interlaced," wouldn't it be nice to actually know?

john-baker wrote on 6/29/2019, 5:18 AM

@Musicvid

Hi

. . . . we prefer fact-finding to blind speculation . . . .

There is a difference between blind speculation and actual experience with the same camera and issue.

. . . . Interleaved audio has nothing to do with moire'. . . . .

Interleaved video when converted to Progressive can exhibit an effect called combing, which when viewed on some TV or monitors is easily mistaken for Moire.

It would be nice to know whether the source video is Interlaced or Progressive, however it does not help with the issue - as we cannot see the actual effect @JUSTIN-JOHNS is seeing, this leaves us in the realm of possible causes.

John EB

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Musicvid wrote on 6/29/2019, 7:41 AM

John, we don't know if the original video is interLACED (he says not), if it shows "flickering moire," or if owning the same camera means he is having the same "issue," if indeed there is one.

But since you do own the same camera, you know it does not shoot AVI, so the output cannot be interLEAVED.

as we cannot see the actual effect @JUSTIN-JOHNS is seeing, this leaves us in the realm of possible causes.

No, the "realm of possible causes" is boundless, tail-chasing imagination. That's why we deal in facts, accurate terminology, and defer speculation in till we see the data and an example. That seems a sufficient reason to ask for these things first, not never.

Musicvid wrote on 6/28/2019, 4:44 PM

Please post your MediaInfo properties and upload a source sample (not YouTube) per the instructions here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

 

JUSTIN-JOHNS wrote on 6/29/2019, 8:06 AM

Ok Thanks. I will post the file information in about a week.

john-baker wrote on 6/29/2019, 9:15 AM

@Musicvid

Hi

. . . . since you do own the same camera, you know it does not shoot AVI, so the output cannot be interLEAVED . . . .

I do not understand why you reference to AVI .

As you quite rightly say AVI is not a format that the camera is capable of, however AVI is not the only format that can contain interleaved video - the camera shoots AVC at 50 fps progressive, which is what the OP has stated in the first post, and also 50i (25fps interleaved) - here is the MediaInfo analysis of a Full HD clip from said camera:

Recorded date                            : 2018-10-26 08:12:48+01:00
Writing application                      : Sony FDR-AX53

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=2, N=13
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 1 min 31 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 15.5 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 16.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan type, store method                  : Separated fields
Scan order                               : Top Field First

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.299
Stream size                              : 169 MiB (93%)
IrisFNumber                              : 4.000000

 

As you can see it is interlaced and is not AVI.

John EB

 

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Musicvid wrote on 6/29/2019, 10:38 AM

the camera shoots AVC at 50 fps progressive, which is what the OP has stated in the first post, and also 50i (25fps interleaved) 

No, it can not.

John, One last time, I will explain the two vocabulary terms, "Interleave" and "Interlace."

Audio Video Interleave (AVI) can be Interlaced or Progressive. Interleave has NOTHING to do with field order. It refers to alternating RIFF data chunks, it does not refer to frames or fields, nor does it have anything to do with AVC video.

AX53 can shoot either Interlaced or Progressive, but it can NEVER shoot Interleave because it cannot shoot AVI. Think on it.

If you actually own such a camera, you should really know this.

We strongly promote the use of precise terminology here so as not to confuse new users. This poster says his source is Progressive, so unless he is not telling the truth, it is neither Interleaved nor Interlaced!!

That's why we ask for details first. Especially since video producers lose their clairvoyance with experience.

From the horse's mouth:

https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000059.shtml

Done here.

 

 

john-baker wrote on 6/29/2019, 3:35 PM

@Musicvid

I agree that the correct term is Interlaced, and it is my bad for using Interleaved, which is widely used, incorrectly, when Interlaced is meant.

John EB

 

 

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP Pro Premium, Video Pro X4, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015, DVD Architect 7 build 100..

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

Musicvid wrote on 6/29/2019, 4:08 PM

Nobody feels as chagrined as me when I've misused Interframe for Intraframe, which of course are as different as night and day, and which moderators have needed to point out. Still, I feel my obligation is to the exchange of accurate information, both to and from the poster, since user attributions are almost always incorrect, as are speculative answers.

Now, about those file properties and sample ...

ronald-e wrote on 6/29/2019, 9:45 PM

I have an AX53 and it can record AVCHD interlaced or progressive. In XAVC-S it is only progressive. To the OP I would suggest he record HD in XAVC-S 50P as in this mode he will get the best quality from the camera and has the greatest flexibility for editing and encoding for other distribution means. Playing back interlace programs to a flat panel TV is dependent on the quality of the de-interlacing to create the progressive feed for the panel.