Stuck in 4K60 rendering hell? Here are some tips

Quindor wrote on 6/22/2019, 8:40 AM

This isn't so much a complain/please help me topic but more to give people stuck in the same 4K60 hell I am often stuck in, a way out. 😇

If you are working with 4K footage and rendering in 4K60 in Vegas Pro 15/16 you know that rendering your footage is pure luck if it finishes or gets stuck somewhere and just "hangs". Vegas doesn't stop responding, you can even hit cancel and you'll get a pop-up but the rendering engine has frozen and it and Vegas will never unstuck without killing it.

(Yes, I've tried everything mentioned here, this happens on multiple computers with multiple installs, drivers, rendering formats, etc.. My PC has an Ryzen 8 core, GTX1080, 64GB of RAM, 5TB of SSD storage, etc.)

Doing multiple runs, each time restarting vegas and restarting your computer, changing cache settings, threads even turning GPU on and off makes no difference. Rendering without cache (0) and no GPU isn't an option anyway because then a 10 minute video would take 14 hours to render, and stop in between anyway.

*aargh* Not a complain topic.

Want to get out of this hell and get your project out?

Tip 1:

If you are like me, you render multiple 720p or 1080p quick passes of your project to check it on a TV, make notes, improve the video until you are done. Surprisingly those renders work just fine every time! No problems whatsoever.

Then you want to render your project in 4K60 while you are sleeping, start up Vegas, start the render but when you come back after having a nice sleep, the project is stuck somewhere randomly in the render process. You try again and again, but whatever you do you can't get it to complete the whole video, stuck for days, hoping for a miracle.

How to fix:
80% of the time the fix for this is odd, but simple. Start Vegas, wait for it to load all your footage, render a pass in 720p and then once it finished, without quitting vegas, render exactly the same video again 4K. Most often, now Vegas renders your project in 4K60 just fine while before it was impossible, whatever you tried.

Tip 2:

This tip kind of builds on the first tip. I sometimes have complex projects, lots of different footage, 10 video time lines, protitle, etc.. For some reason, although editing has become fairly stable (and advanced save on 1 minute saves helps a lot too) rendering such a big project in 4K60 will just never happen.

For these kind of project (Latest one is 25 minutes) the above tip often doesn't help anymore either and you are stuck unable to get your project out, whatever you try.

How to Fix:
There is an Option called "Render to new track" where you can define a region which Vegas then renders and adds to the editor again as a single video. If I'm stuck with this kind of issue that option is a godsend. For a 30 minute video I do this 10 times and after a few days of work, most often I can finaly render a final with all the video in there! Quality degradation seems manageble by exporting in very high quality (I use 4K60 80Mbit HEVC).

This still suffers from what I described above, so select a region, render in 720p (normal render) for that region and then use the "Render to new track" option to render to 4K60. If you have the patience to go through this hell for the whole time and babysit it for a day or two, you'll get your video out!

I've had this issue with all builds of Vegas Pro 15 and Pro 16. I've complained about it before (albeit at the wrong spot) but it seems that this issue (or how to fix it) isn't very well known. I hope this helps anyone reading this get their project rendered. It seems to be the only way to get it actually done for me.

p.s. Although tips are always welcome, it isn't a PC stability issue, my PC doesn't crash. I can run Aida64 stability test, OCCT, Prime95, etc. for hours without issue. It's Vegas itself, or rather it's rendering engine in the background which gets stuck and never continues again until you hard kill it. You can't even quit, because hitting cancel just gives the pop-up if you want to stop rendering but it never does, no matter how often you push that button.

p.p.s. I'm hoping they are going to focus a lot on 4K editing and rendering for Vegas Pro 17, otherwise I'm out. I love the editor and how I can put a project together, and it works "ok" for simple projects (with above workarounds) but doing larger projects and needing to spend days to get what you have worked on rendered out and you can't because it just crashes/hangs/freezes, I just can't justify it anymore. :(

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Comments

Quindor wrote on 6/24/2019, 11:03 AM

Look @Musicvid this topic was mainly meant for people who are stuck in getting their project (Which I still am, getting there, but very very slowly) some tips in how they might finally get it rendered. I do appreciate tips and some things I might have missed, but I've been working with Vegas Pro for 2 years now doing about a 100 videos so I have indeed tried most if not all suggestions mentioned or what I could think of myself when encountering a program issue/bugHowever your comment however completely misses the any relevance whatsoever? In my opinion it's actually quite degrading and rude. We seem to live in completely different worlds. 1080p is long and forgotten, my security cameras are 4K/8MP models, my phone shoots in 4K as does my camera, I don't watch broadcast TV and over 80% of YouTube or Netflix content consumed is in 4K. If even just in your workflow having the extra amount of pixels with which you can zoom into the picture slightly too much quality loss is worth it in my opinion. 4K isn't anything new anymore, it hasn't been for years, just like HEVC.

I'm not sure what kind of equipment you are using but if you can't see the difference between a quality 1080p video and 4K I don't know what is wrong there but it should be VERY simple to spot, in an instant, especially for content often consumed on a PC monitor, which is much closer than a television. But if you think 1080p is acceptable quality still, you are pushing you standards which you deem ok and "over the top" onto someone else, why? Because then you can say it's stupid even trying to do so? That makes no sense whatsoever. I'm trying to highlight Vegas Pro has issues rendering out 4K60, your answer is basically I'm stupid for even trying or my colors are wrong.... ?

Then you go and "insult" me that I don't know how to manage my own productions or can't have any deadlines, wtf? If I hadn't been stuck in this "rendering hell" as I call it, this video would have been live in the time I alloted for it and not wasted 3 (and counting) of my days because of totally project unrelated but tool related issues, days I could have spent producing other content. Or you know, doing something fun. My income is actually partially dependant of my content so suggestion to let it go.... really?

I am clearly not a cinematic producer, I make videos as a hobby which has grown into a YouTube channel. It's not about the cinematic content but bringing the actual content to the viewer in a pleasing and easy to understand format. I do this by myself, I am not a video production company, so everything you mention are moot points to start with really. And no my videos aren't perfect in all regards, and I am continuously trying to improve, the video linked was from 1,5 years but even then, how does that have anything to do with my issue? My content is YouTube only and is perfectly suited to be played on monitor screens, tablets and even modern TV's with a YouTube app or Chromecast. Furthermore, especially these IP camera review videos, everything you suggest should NOT be done because most of the video is about the original content!

You then talk about me giving people a lecture, on this issue, yes I did, but otherwise, not at all. But please, get off your high horse after just writing 3 paragraphs of lecture what you deem standard video practice and production kind of hinting that what I'm trying to produce is stupid, your "advice" is in no way is even applicable to my situation or the problem that is the main focus of this topic.

So basically, if you have any experience working with 4K60 footage and rendering it out in Vegas like I'm trying to finish (Like I've done for over a 100 videos), that's great. For others who are trying to, I hope you don't get stuck in the same hell I am in currently.

I hope we can get back to an open and helpful topic again. :)

Quindor wrote on 6/24/2019, 11:13 AM

So, to summarize for people reading this later on and are trying to a render a "complex" project in 4K60, the best tips for now are:

Video rendering gets stuck at random point in video, Vegas does not crash but "remaining" counter just keeps growing
- WORKAROUND: Render project in 720p first then without closing Vegas Pro immediately render in 4K60 again
- Possible WORKAROUND: Are you using any "large" PNG or JPG files in your project? Try resizing them externally to much smaller and rendering your project again
TIP: Cut up your project from the start in multiple .veg files so Vegas doesn't get overwhelmed
- If you do so afterwards, be mindful certain timeline settings do not get copied over to a new project
Corruption in cross-fade output
- FIX: Render using Ottor scripts, this prevents this issue

p.s. Other tips on the forum can be useful too such as setting buffer values to "0" can certainly help in these situations and also checkout so4compound related issues

p.s. Updating NVidia drivers is always good to do, but this issue is Vegas related and happens on systems without NVidia cards too.

Once I'm done with the project I'll make sure to add this and other good directly related tips to the starting post too.

Musicvid wrote on 6/24/2019, 11:38 AM

1080p works. Best of luck, I shall not interfere again, misattributions notwithstanding.

D7K wrote on 6/24/2019, 1:41 PM

Bandwidth is the issue. SpaceX would be crushed if every user used only 4K and system startup. Heck even with 12K satellites high 4k usage is a real potential problem. Use 4k all the time and you will either be metered or have prices raise significantly. There is no free lunch here. And the real question is whether 4K is just an intermediate short term standard and 8K becomes the real standard for a significant period of time.

It's just my opinion but I think everyone has there own work flow (and it may or may not work for others). I see bandwidth problems becoming much worse before new infrastructure is developed where 4K is main stream. When internet costs as much as cable and satellite TV, it will be interesting to see what happens in regard to the "standards" - most homes are still 1080P on TV's and monitors. You Pays Your Money and Takes Your chances IMHO.

Former user wrote on 6/24/2019, 4:12 PM

Here’s the thing @Quindor, i’m sure it is appreciated that you’re giving some tips on a workflow/render hell that trips you up. The value of your tips will only become realised if it turns out that any user using similar source footage and attempts to output in similar fashion. Sure, @Zkuggi has reported similar experiences.

What if other users don’t have the same issues with trying the same source/output workflow, if so then the tips are not of general use but only of specific use to yourself.

The only way to ascertain if you’re tips on render workflow etc are of general value is if 1) many other users than yourself and @Zkuggi can say say, yes, great tips, works for me also. 2) Or were you to make available for download the smallest test project that still gives similar rendering finishing issues, and include a screenshot/jpg of the render template for other users to use.

There is the possibility that its either a VP issue with this type of 4K workflow generally or maybe only specific to your project composition/makeup or hardware mix.

Zkuggi wrote on 6/24/2019, 4:56 PM

Just to elaborateon my experience I had these rendering issues on two different computers.

Former computer: Intel i7-4770K with Nvidia 1070 and 16GB DDR3 RAM. 3TB Source file HDD. Running Windows 10 Pro with latest stable release of software/firmware.

Current computer is Intel i9-9900K with Nvidia 2080 and 32GB DDR4 RAM 1TBB source file SSD, running Windows 10 Pro with latest stable release of software/firmware.

Sure there are some common similarities. This could be related to Nvidia or Intel CPU's. But my current machine is an absolute workhorse and has no problems with the actual editing process. It plays through tthe 4K 60fps source material silky smooth even with some filters applied. Not using any proxy editing or edit friendly material. I have sit for many hours without any issues. Then I start the rendering process. Output 4K60 and it might hang up. Very frustrating experience and I feel @Quindor frustration of having to go through all those extra steps just to deliver final product and appreciate his efforts in trying to add hint's to other that might have the same problem.
If I were in his shoes I would probably being considering trying out some other programs.

But maybe this is not as common problem as I thought. Given how few people are reporting similar experiences here at this forum?

Just one added point on the source material. Yes. I have been having these problems with using the GH5 8bit 60p source MP4 files. But also with similar 4K30p .MOV source material from Olympus OMD em mII. And it did not help to convert all the source to edit-friendly ProRes format and try to edit that.

I htink this is related to Vegas rendering engine as this is only something I experienced with Vegas. Trying the same source with similiar edits in DaVinci or Video Pro X has no problems.

Finally. I am totally with @Quindor on that 4K60p is the most requested video format for what I am doing. I am a hobbyist and never work with any broadcasted material. I am sure we have to follow completely different rules if it were so. But that is kind of irrelevant to the topics of this post.

Thanks everybody for a valuable discussion and tips on this matter. This forum and its community is a part of what makes Vegas Pro so good.

Zkuggi wrote on 6/24/2019, 5:00 PM

@Quindor are you using any specific 3rd party plugins in all of your compositions/projects?

Kinvermark wrote on 6/24/2019, 7:22 PM

Render "stalls" in Vegas are as old as the hillls. :) The reasons can be very difficult to track down, which is probably why the problem(s) still exist.

FWIW, many years ago I adopted the strategy of segmenting my larger projects, and rendering those parts to a less processor intensive format (ie Cineform), before doing a final render (e.g. h.264) from a master timeline. This has worked pretty well, and I cannot remember the last time a render stalled.

The fact that this works at all, implies that the fault occurs due to stressing the compositing engine, as you have suggested. Also, there are some lower thirds that are very hit and miss for me (sometimes work, sometimes glitch) so I don't use them. In your case(s) the complexity of your projects combined with high resolution and doubled frame rates probably makes this occurrence quite likely. Less complicated projects, with lighter weight requirements will mostly never have a problem.

Do other NLE's have this problem? YES. For sure. You just need to spend enough time with them to find out - or serach a forum; you will find the complaints.

So yes, divide and conquer.

petecarney wrote on 6/25/2019, 2:42 PM

I tried rendering a 4K two cam project with two audio sources all mixed. I rendered it originally as an HD 30p file to upload. Worked great. Have rendered a number of 4K UHD 30p pieces with not a single hang, so I thought I'd try 4K 60p and see. Sure enough it hung at about 16 mins in of an 1 hour 51 min project.

My system is a dual SSD, X399 mobo, 32 gigs DDR4 ram, TR1950X, Radeon 7 machine. There's definitely an issue with Vegas 16 b424 rendering long in 4K 60p

Thanks for the heads up @Quindor

Cheers, Pete

Quindor wrote on 6/25/2019, 2:47 PM

@D7K are you talking about broadcast? Because in my world I have a 500/40 internet connection, soon upgraded to 1000/1000 and while I know that's a luxury, a modest 50 Mbit connection can handle online streaming 4K content just fine. Bandwidth is a thing to take into account, but if you know the ISP world you also know that they have scaled up at least a 1000 fold since the 1080p era. Quality and with it bandwidth will keep on growing, as long as providers don't artificially limit their customers (providers in America) because they unfairly want money from someone (netflix), all is fine. You'll be hard pressed to even still find a 1080p flat screen for sale at this point, you can get a 40" 4K one for 300$.

@Former user I can understand where you are coming from, and no, my issues doesn't have to be a universal issue everyone has. I have personally experienced it for the last 1,5 year or so on at least three seperate computers. Still, that doesn't prove it either, actually I believe it's because of how I use Vegas with heavy usage of the Protitler and things like shadow and glow. Still, for the people who do encounter this, I wanted them to at least find a positive topic about Vegas with some tips in it. :)

I'll try and make something available in the future which "most often" runs into the issue. But the issue is, I don't know either which combination exactly triggers it, I just know I have this problem in some of my projects and it's a real *BEEP* to deal with.

@Zkuggi I see you have faced this issue too, thnx for sharing. No external plugins in use, except Ottor scripts because of the output corruption (which I don't have when using those scripts!). That corruption only seems to occur when I use (ffmpeg transcoded) IP camera footage or certain fades between images and colors, never been able to pinout it exactly either and mostly don't have any issues myself. Also, often rendering just a small part does not trigger it, but then when I render the whole project it pops back up.

@Kinvermark Right on the money, this is exactly as how I see this problem occurring too. I will also start segmenting my projects from the get go when I know it's going to become more complex, but it's kind of sad that it's needed.

As others have suggested, yes I have already decided to branch out and give Resolve a go, I've been hearing a lot of good things about it and the price is about the same. The reason I have stuck with Vegas is because I love editing in it, although incredibly slow at times (protitler stuff) with 1FPS or lower, even while using proxies, I still like how it is designed and works. I have made a complete workflow in it for the past few years and will have to remake that in other software, costing a lot of time. But if I get stuck into "rendering hell" like this again, well... my head will probably explode out of frustration. :P

For people interested, I have posted the video (As good as I was able to get it), you can find it here:

Musicvid wrote on 6/25/2019, 7:25 PM

Neither my PC nor my Droid, with 20+ Mbps from Centurylink or with Verizon 4G, will keep up absolutely consistently with your original 2160 or 1440 p60 streams from Youtube, but the 1440 is closer. 1080 p60 works on everything in this house. I did some measurements, and your 4k p60 stream comes down the pipe from YT at 14Mbps, which is at the dirty end of 4k bandwidth. I've got Gb Wifi and Ethernet. Amazon Fire 4k works, but I ended my Netflix trial early.

Using Akamai numbers, the average US Mobile connection speed is 10.6 Mbps, effectively ruling out ~65% of your US Mobile users at full bitrate on a standard curve. I'm guessing it will be a while before this number quadruples. For best results, Don't make YouTube downscale where it isn't needed.

Kinvermark wrote on 6/25/2019, 8:51 PM

@Musicvid

Which browser?

I live on the edge of Vancouver, BC and cannot get better than a 50 Mbps internet connection. @Quindor s video played back nicely in Chrome, but Youtube would only give me a 1080p option in MS Edge.

FWIW, I can certainly see the point in 4k for reviewing 4k security cameras. The main problem with these cameras is that you cannot accurately identify the &%(837627 ! scumbag thief who broke into your house, so the police do nothing. (Don't ask how I know this. 😀 ) So, good to have as accurate a representation of a camera's capabilities as possible in my opinion.

For other content, my opinion is that 4k (and higher) is quite relevant. Here's why - the method of content consumption is changing. Yes, if I sit more than 6 feet away from my 55" UHD TV I cannot see any difference from 4k to 1080p. However, if I watch content on my desktop computer monitor ( 40" UHD) than I most definitely see the difference. I think there are now a lot of people consuming media on high DPI screens parked virtually inches from their faces.

Musicvid wrote on 6/25/2019, 9:03 PM

@Kinvermark No browser. Direct vp9 stream download.

Yes, there is a difference viewing UHD and HD bit depths on any so-equipped monitor. 8 bit levels the playing field wrt resolution. The OP is not uploading 10 bit.

jeremy-stevens wrote on 6/26/2019, 12:07 AM

Is Vegas Pro on the way out? This software has become barely usable. The GH5 is a popular enough camera that Vegas Pro should be able to work with their Long GOP files. Vegas Pro crashes more an more with every update since Magix took over. I been using this software since it fist came out but its clearly not going to cut it going forward. It was great at one point but now the engineering behind this software is just horrible.

Musicvid wrote on 6/26/2019, 12:25 AM

Jeremy, please start your own thread with your own topic, thanks.

Quindor wrote on 7/1/2019, 9:29 AM

Interesting, I was doing a new video about IP cameras and at a certain point during my workflow vegas started to have issues rendering my project again. Upon looking back what actions I did since the last time I had added a "very large" PNG file and some overlay text which I copied and use in both my other IP camera videos which where both the videos I had been having all these problems with.

So I decided to reduce the PNG file in size to 30% of what it was (Still big enough for no quality loss) and after that my project started rendering just fine again. So I'm starting to think that maybe the compositing engine breaking has something to do with "very large" source files.

(Original file was 3500x3500, resized it to 1050x1050).

I will try and do some more testing when time permits!

D7K wrote on 7/1/2019, 9:40 AM

I am getting 84 MPS average and still only view 1080P most of the time online. I have both a 4K 50" TV and a 4K 32" monitor hooked up to my AMD480 8 gig and feel that 1080P is "good enough" for most things. Just because we can doesn't mean we should:)

Quindor wrote on 7/1/2019, 9:56 AM

@D7K If I watch my content or anything else in 1080p I feel like something is broken, wrong or I need to go out and buy glasses. So in my opinion, I do not believe 1080p is "good enough" anymore, it hasn't been for years. Especially when looking at content up close like a PC monitor.

With that said, we are all entitled to our own opinions about that I think and if you feel 1080p is good enough for you, your content and projects, that's fine. It doesn't invalidate me trying to render my projects in 4K60 in any way shape or form.

Please, I don't want to start this discussion again. Rendering in 1080p is NOT an option for me.

BruceUSA wrote on 7/1/2019, 11:48 AM

@D7K If I watch my content or anything else in 1080p I feel like something is broken, wrong or I need to go out and buy glasses. So in my opinion, I do not believe 1080p is "good enough" anymore, it hasn't been for years. Especially when looking at content up close like a PC monitor.

With that said, we are all entitled to our own opinions about that I think and if you feel 1080p is good enough for you, your content and projects, that's fine. It doesn't invalidate me trying to render my projects in 4K60 in any way shape or form.

Please, I don't want to start this discussion again. Rendering in 1080p is NOT an option for me.

There will always be people out there happily live with 1080P because it is good enough for them. But for me and my experience is this. I shoot high quality 4K footage from GH5 and will never ever going back or just stay at 1080P. Just no way , no how, nada. If you can't see a different in viewing in 1080P or 4K on your TV or monitor. Then you should and need to get your eyes check out. As for high resolution will always be moving forward, not backward. History always tell us that.

3POINT wrote on 7/1/2019, 3:00 PM

I shoot already almost 4 years in 4k and have a 65" 4k TV at a viewing distance of about 3,5 meters (10 feet). I don't see at that distance no difference between my 4k footage downscaled to 1080 or my 4k footage left at 4k. Both versions look just great, no reason for me to spend 4 time longer rendertimes and storage space. Shooting in 4k, YES, rendering to 4k, NO, not really necessary.

j-v wrote on 7/1/2019, 3:22 PM

3POINT wrote on 7/1/2019, 3:43 PM

And I just once test it again, "smart"rendered (not with Vegas) 4k25 footage from a Panasonic FZ300 with only dissolves with 95,5 mbps bitrate to a 1.72GB 4k25 file and the same timeline with a 16 mbps bitrate to a 0.294GB 1080p25 file. I cannot see any difference in quality from my seat. Both look superb.

Musicvid wrote on 7/1/2019, 3:44 PM

@3POINT

no reason for me to spend 4 time longer rendertimes and storage space.

+10

Not to mention 4 times upload and processing time for something not everyone can view...

wwjd wrote on 7/2/2019, 6:36 AM

wow. twas weird reading all about 1080 rendering when the topic title is clearly marked it's about 4K. Thanks for posting the 4k Rendering tips. Vegas works about 50% of the time when I am rendering 4K as well, so I look forward to ANYTHING that helps. 4k is here, life goes forward. :)