100 Mbps?

And you are getting stuttering and glitches?

Imagine that.

Use a default template (the ones with SANE bitrates), because that is where you need to start. Then if it still glitches, check your source for bad frames or try a different encoder; there are several.

If your source has errored frames, VideoRedo may be able to repair them.

Sorry j-v, I should have been more specific in my original post. I don't use exactly the same settings in VP 14 since HEVC isn't available. I use a customized AVC setting linked below and that has worked just fine. I did try similar settings with AVC and ran into the same issues as HEVC. I haven't tried a default template but I did try my same settings with 20k kbps and that did not have the same artifacts. My hopes was to have the same settings in VP 16 since they worked fine in 14

https://i.imgur.com/L35NQEt.jpg

Also Musicvid, I understand my preferred settings seem like overkill but when I record directly from my capture card, I record at 140 Mbps. So my video settings are still a downgrade from the source material. When I work with 4K files, I want the quality to be as high as possible to counter YouTube's horrible compression. The higher your bitrate, the better it looks on YouTube. I do comparison videos, so the clarity is very beneficial. I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for similar results I've experienced with older versions of the software.

Also my source video is fine, the issues only show up in my rendered video.

I haven't tried a default template but I did try my same settings with 20k kbps and that did not have the same artifacts. My hopes was to have the same settings in VP 16 since they worked fine in 14

If you don't believe in the made default settings of the makers of the program and of the Magix HEVC NVENC for rendertemplates and not even tryied them it is and stays your own problem. Sorry I tried to help.

I haven't tried a default template but I did try my same settings with 20k kbps and that did not have the same artifacts. My hopes was to have the same settings in VP 16 since they worked fine in 14

If you don't believe in the made default settings of the makers of the program and of the Magix HEVC NVENC for rendertemplates and not even tryied them it is and stays your own problem. Sorry I tried to help.

Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to try them and am testing one of them now. I was just being honest when telling you what I've tried so far. It also has nothing to do with not believing in the defaults. It's about trying to find a better balance. The options they offer jumps from 50 mbps to 135 mbps. One is lower than I prefer while the other is way too high.

I appreciate the help but I don't think it's fair to act like I'm doing something wrong by wanting to use custom settings when they allow you to customize them. If it's not possible, I'd like to at least understand why I can't do something in v16 that I could previously do in v14.

Also Musicvid, I understand my preferred settings seem like overkill but when I record directly from my capture card, I record at 140 Mbps. So my video settings are still a downgrade from the source material. When I work with 4K files, I want the quality to be as high as possible to counter YouTube's horrible compression. The higher your bitrate, the better it looks on YouTube.

Having empirically tested both of those assumptions in collaboration with other forum users in 2011, and periodically over time, I am convinced they are incorrect across the board.

1. Quality and Bitrate do not share a direct cause-and-effect relationship. Not across compressors, not across different source material, not across delivery platforms.

2. Once optimal bitrate has been achieved (our tested figures and YouTube's agree closely on this), no quality advantage occurs by dumping more bits on the process. YouTube is what it is.

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+4k+upload+specs&oq=youtube+4k+upload&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.18857j0j7&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Mike, interframe compression uses a different kind of math than the linear-sequential kind you were taught in school. We all started out thinking the same way. If you will stick with our and YouTube's "best practices," and keep an open mind, you will find you still have some wiggle room without spending so much time trying to wag the dog.

That said, Nick may drop in with a trick or two that come from ingenuity, not street logic.

Also Musicvid, I understand my preferred settings seem like overkill but when I record directly from my capture card, I record at 140 Mbps. So my video settings are still a downgrade from the source material. When I work with 4K files, I want the quality to be as high as possible to counter YouTube's horrible compression. The higher your bitrate, the better it looks on YouTube.

Having empirically tested both of those assumptions in collaboration with other forum users in 2011, and periodically over time, I am convinced they are incorrect across the board.

1. Quality and Bitrate do not share a direct cause-and-effect relationship. Not across compressors, not across different source material, not across delivery platforms.

2. Once optimal bitrate has been achieved (our tested figures and YouTube's agree closely on this), no quality advantage occurs by dumping more bits on the process. YouTube is what it is.

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+4k+upload+specs&oq=youtube+4k+upload&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.18857j0j7&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Mike, interframe compression uses a different kind of math than the linear-sequential kind you were taught in school. We all started out thinking the same way. If you will stick with our and YouTube's "best practices," and keep an open mind, you will find you still have some wiggle room without spending so much time trying to wag the dog.

That said, Nick may drop in with a trick or two that come from ingenuity, not street logic.

Appreciate the link, I've looked at it before but not since they've added the recommendations for HDR.

Your claims are your claims about bitrate only apply to YouTube and not video quality in general, right?

I'm not apposed to rendering at lower bitrate, especially if the difference doesn't show on YouTube. As I said above, I'm still testing out different settings. Regardless, that YouTube link does highlight an issue. They recommend up to 85 Mbps for 4K HDR but even when I render at 80 Mbps, I run into the issues above. I've been looking into working in HDR, which is one of the reasons why I purchased VP 16. So I'd be in the same situation when I make the move.

In the end, it would still be nice to know why I'm running into issues with v16 that I didn't with v14. Especially since I'll be running into those issues when working with HDR. I appreciate you trying to help, and would never turn away sound advice. However I would like to carry on this conversation without you talking down to me or treating me like an idiot. I'm merely trying to better understand the program and determine the best way to get the most out of it.

They are making changes in the program, you know :)

When I upgraded from VP11 to VP12 long time ago I discovered that quality of Mainconcept AVC render reduced dramatically. Looks like they "tuned" somehow in-build encoder settings. That was not announced at all. I stopped to use the encoded when I get tired to copy encoder dll from the old version.

Then I upgraded from VP13 to VP15. Sony AVC encoder got broken for my 32-bit pixel format workflow (fixed already) so I tried to use Magix AVC again. Unfortunately, the issue was not fixed since Mainconcept AVC.

Long story short, if you are after the best possible quality, CPU only encoding with external encoder is the best option. Unfortunately.

They are making changes in the program, you know :)

When I upgraded from VP11 to VP12 long time ago I discovered that quality of Mainconcept AVC render reduced dramatically. Looks like they "tuned" somehow in-build encoder settings. That was not announced at all. I stopped to use the encoded when I get tired to copy encoder dll from the old version.

Then I upgraded from VP13 to VP15. Sony AVC encoder got broken for my 32-bit pixel format workflow (fixed already) so I tried to use Magix AVC again. Unfortunately, the issue was not fixed since Mainconcept AVC.

Long story short, if you are after the best possible quality, CPU only encoding with external encoder is the best option. Unfortunately.

Yeah that makes sense. Do you have any recommendations? I'm fine with a slower encoding process, especially if it produces great results. A 4K video used to take around 13-14 hours in VP 14. Now that's been cut down to around 2 hours but with those visual issues. I'd gladly trade rendering performance for rendering quality. Thank you for the response BTW, I appreciate the help.

Mike, you are one of those people who will always shoot for the moon first, and without exception.

For that reason alone, I am unable to help you further on this inquiry, lacking high end graphics and a 4k HDR monitor, not to mention 80 Mbps internet.

Just how do you plan to deliver and view 4k HDR p60 to any but a tiny sliver of the YouTube market during the remainder of this decade?

Points up the same hobbyist vs. producer debate present in my memory since Windows was just an extension of DOS 12.

I was a hobbyist then and since retirement; the substance of my career having been spent as a producer (signature below.).

That said, I'm not satisfied unless my product is universally viewable by the YouTube masses.

For me, that sweet spot is 720 or 1080 p30, which isnt as conservative as you think. What good are all those bits if no one can view them? I also have concerns about YouTube's downscaling quality.

When I work with 4K files, I want the quality to be as high as possible to counter YouTube's horrible compression. 

As you are aware by now, that doesn't work. I can show you how to use the MSU SSIM Tool if you want to see for yourself. But you have pointed out the real problem, which is not Vegas' handling of high bitrate hardware renders (kind of an oxymoron when you think about it).

Congratulations on pointing out a potential unwanted discrepancy between Vegss versions. It needs to be further documented, have other variables ruled out, and proven consistent and repeatable, and I hope you will continue to help with that effort But as far as your YouTube viewing quality, it would seem to make not a speck of difference. You have my thoughts, and good luck.

Mike, you are one of those people who will always shoot for the moon first, and without exception.

For that reason alone, I am unable to help you further on this inquiry.

Just how do you plan to deliver and view 4k HDR p60 to any but a tiny sliver of the YouTube market during the remainder of this decade?

Points up the same hobbyist vs. producer debate present in my memory since before Windows was just an extension of DOS 12.

I was a hobbyist then and since retirement; the substance of my career having been spent as a producer.

That said, I'm not satisfied unless my product is universally viewable by the YouTube masses. What good are all those bits if no one can view them.

When I work with 4K files, I want the quality to be as high as possible to counter YouTube's horrible compression. 

As you are aware by now, that doesn't work. I can show you how to use the MSU SSIM Tool if you want to see for yourself.

Congratulations on pointing out a potential unwanted discrepancy between versions. It needs to be documented, have other variables ruled out, and proven consistent and repeatable, and I hope you will continue to help with that effort But as far as your YouTube viewing quality, it would seem to make not a speck of difference. Good luck.

I really don't understand the passive aggressive nature here. You're acting like I'm being unreasonable here when I'm fine rendering at lower bitrate for standard 4K videos. You're also acting like it's a mistake to venture into HDR videos when it makes perfect sense for a channel that covers video games. I'm trying to make the videos I want to make, not strictly for clicks and views. What is the point in investing in new software and hardware if I can't produce the best video quality possible? There's nothing wrong with wanting to produce the best videos I can.

If you're unable to help me, I understand and still appreciate the recommendations you've made. However please don't spin it around as if I'm the problem here when I'm open to learn and receive recommendations.

And that points out exactly the differences between me and my mentors here fifteen years ago when I was pushing unrealistic quality vs. bitrate theories of my own With that, I will bow out, my own philosophies still being an evolving process.

And I am aware of the gradual but recent shift from production to hobbyist interests on the pro forum, something that frustrates me to no end.

You've shown a willingness to keep an open mind and consider alternate viewpoints, something not all that easy to trigger here in a public discussion of logistical considerations you raised in your original post. Welcome to the forums.

Do you have any recommendations?

Unfortunately, I do not have any recommendations for 4K. With my 1080-60p footage I'm using x264 through frame server. Not sure if this acceptable for 4K at all and how fast it would work.

However, from you posts it was not clear if you have the issue in your rendered media or only when it is uploaded to youtube.

Do you have any recommendations?

Unfortunately, I do not have any recommendations for 4K. With my 1080-60p footage I'm using x264 through frame server. Not sure if this acceptable for 4K at all and how fast it would work.

However, from you posts it was not clear if you have the issue in your rendered media or only when it is uploaded to youtube.

I'm having issues with the rendered media. I appreciate the help though and am looking at other options I can use.

I appreciate the help but I don't think it's fair to act like I'm doing something wrong by wanting to use custom settings when they allow you to customize them. If it's not possible, I'd like to at least understand why I can't do something in v16 that I could previously do in v14………..

In the end, it would still be nice to know why I'm running into issues with v16 that I didn't with v14………….

Do you have any recommendations? I'm fine with a slower encoding process, especially if it produces great results. A 4K video used to take around 13-14 hours in VP 14. Now that's been cut down to around 2 hours but with those visual issues........

I'm having issues with the rendered media. I appreciate the help though and am looking at other options I can use.

Probably you cannot understand that a program developes from 14 - 15 - 16.
For me was the greatest step from 14-15 with the possibilities of NVENC and QSV for helping to encode with the modern hardware of the Intel and Nvidia GPU's.

If you liked your way of working with 14 and cannot arrange that in 16>>>> stay with 14 and the old and ancient Sony ( or Mainconcept) AVC encoding.

Here my (in short) experiences I published here a lot with a lot of examples and testrenders.
I have with both hardware of my signature very good results with the Magix AVC and HEVC MP4 codecs to render my FHD and 4K stuff (GOPro 5 Black and DJI 4K) with default templates.
With NVENC the quality is excellent with renders upto 50 % lower bitrates, depending on quantity of movement in the video.
With QSV ( little faster than NVENC) I had in those cases a little bit quality loss (blurry and artifacts), and that did I also report here.

Maybe it helps but please stop complaining about the quality of rendering in your VPro 16 while comparing with old and ancient codecs, but not using the adviced newer Templates.

BTW. you have the possibility to render to AVC with the same codecs compared to version 14 with these templates

Or make possible in the internal preferences to use the old Mainconcept encoder again

Or use the old Sony AVC

All in Vegas Pro 16!

Sorry you are having to deal with abusive forum members. Over the past year there has been a lot of frustration with bugs and glitches with Vegas 15 which turned into many anti-Vegas posts, some of which were unproductive rants.

I think now even well-intentioned questions and pointed out bugs are triggering pro-Vegas posturing and user-blaming, which is going too far.

Anyway, submit a support request as sometimes Magix has ideas beyond what forum members have uncovered. I hope you get it working- I never resolved GPU related render glitches (very diff. projects from you) other than reverting to CPU only.

i also know what you are talking about but cannot provide a fix. vegas sometimes renders strange things, from stuttering to blocky pixelation or not rendered transitions (most of the time from new blue)  i have experienced all.

i wanted to buy a 4K TV this or next year but when we were at the store and i tested my own 4K files on it i came to the conclusion not to buy one. The Bitrate they Support is too low to Play 4K media files with acceptable bitrates for quality. The cheaper ones played also the higher Bitrate files but stuttered sometimes. (i was asked what camera i used to record, the tv seller liked the Quality). Some TVs have intergrated Features to make bad looking media look better, lol... i don't get it. When you look what Bitrate they stream HD over the sat. to our TVs here in Germany, and they want you to pay for it.. a joke!

Basically I'm experiencing hitching/stuttering and pixelation. You can see below at 14:35 and 1:02:39 in the two links below.

Checked the pixelation in your videos. Wow, it is even worse that I have ever seen (in my cases it was not so bad).

To isolate the issue I'd try:

1. Make a selection from 0:00 to 15:00 and render with the same settings as now.

2. If the issue is still there, I'd switch GPU acceleration ON in Vegas Settings and trying to render using Magix AVC (CPU) with constant bitrate ~60 000 000. I'd create new encoding profile based on default VP16 profile.

3. I'd try to render through external encoder (x264) to check what would be the rendering speed.

Thank you for the suggestions guys and some background of this place RogerS. Working in the IT industry I know how a program develops and I'm not complaining about the software, I think it's great outside of this one issue.

Also oddly enough I do have GPU acceleration turned on, I must have taken that picture of my preferences when I was experimenting with it off.

I'm hoping to have figured it out. Trying out the mainconcept encoder. It's slower but 5 hours to render a video is still faster than 13+. Won't find out until I get home from work.

Again thank you to everyone who offered suggestions.

@Mike_S I seem to be a bit late to this post? If not already suggested, I would make some changes to your project settings; untick "Adjust source media..." check box and disable resample. I would also check if the source media is actual 60fps or 59.94fps and also not a variable frame rate; MediaInfo is a good tool for that.

I would also change the render template just a little bit. While I am ok with the higher end setting for VBR encoding, I would lower the average setting to 80 or even 60 or just go with CBR.

Also keep in mind that VP14 is based on Sony Vegas Pro 13, I would actually call SVP13.2 and VP15 is a "more" redesigned version but still with the same core. GPU acceleration has changed quite a bit between the two versions.

I assume the pixelation is not in the source file; any chance you could post that section at a download site so that others can test it?

NVENC encoding should be as good as CPU encoding at such high bit rates. I also only partially agree with Musicvid, I would leave the 150 or go higher, after all this is 4K 60p. You may also try and render to XAVC-I, provided it does 4K 60p, I am not at my editing machine at the moment. That will render at a high bit rate and YT has no problem accepting the file. You could just test render the section in question and upload it.

@Mike_S I seem to be a bit late to this post? If not already suggested, I would make some changes to your project settings; untick "Adjust source media..." check box and disable resample. I would also check if the source media is actual 60fps or 59.94fps and also not a variable frame rate; MediaInfo is a good tool for that.

I would also change the render template just a little bit. While I am ok with the higher end setting for VBR encoding, I would lower the average setting to 80 or even 60 or just go with CBR.

Also keep in mind that VP14 is based on Sony Vegas Pro 13, I would actually call SVP13.2 and VP15 is a "more" redesigned version but still with the same core. GPU acceleration has changed quite a bit between the two versions.

I assume the pixelation is not in the source file; any chance you could post that section at a download site so that others can test it?

NVENC encoding should be as good as CPU encoding at such high bit rates. I also only partially agree with Musicvid, I would leave the 150 or go higher, after all this is 4K 60p. You may also try and render to XAVC-I, provided it does 4K 60p, I am not at my editing machine at the moment. That will render at a high bit rate and YT has no problem accepting the file. You could just test render the section in question and upload it.

Hey thanks for the recommendations! I'm not at my editing machine but I'll surely check out your suggestions when I get home from work. I do already disable resampling per video but it does make sense to make that my default in the project settings. I'll also double check the frame rate, though I'm rather confident on that front.

I tried to enable CBR but couldn't and haven't had the chance to figure out why. I plan to play with it more when I get home. Any ideas why the option for CBR is grayed out for me?

Also what you're saying about VP14 makes sense. I started with Vegas 13 and upgraded to 14 and the differences is nowhere near as large as I'm seeing with VP16.

You are correct that the source file does not have any issues. I'll have to see when I get home but I'm not sure if I have the cloud storage large enough to store the source file.

Last, are you suggesting I use 150 mbps or go higher? I'm not sure if I'm reading the last part of your post correctly. I have run multiple tests with the original project and the problem areas were fine at lower bit rates. The highest I could render with my previously posted settings has been 50 Mbps. I'm seeing if I can go higher with mainconcept encoding. Assuming this is encoding with just the CPU? When I started it before leaving for work, my CPU was being utilized much better and higher than NVENC encoding while my GPU was just sitting idle. I thought my GPU could assist even when I wasn't using NVidia's encoding but maybe not. Or maybe I still had GPU acceleration turned off. Not sure but I plan to play around more tonight. I have some projects in the back burner so the sooner I get this all figured out, the better.

Will keep you posted after I test it all out. Appreciate the response!

@Mike_S I seem to be a bit late to this post? If not already suggested, I would make some changes to your project settings; untick "Adjust source media..." check box and disable resample. I would also check if the source media is actual 60fps or 59.94fps and also not a variable frame rate; MediaInfo is a good tool for that.

I would also change the render template just a little bit. While I am ok with the higher end setting for VBR encoding, I would lower the average setting to 80 or even 60 or just go with CBR.

Also keep in mind that VP14 is based on Sony Vegas Pro 13, I would actually call SVP13.2 and VP15 is a "more" redesigned version but still with the same core. GPU acceleration has changed quite a bit between the two versions.

I assume the pixelation is not in the source file; any chance you could post that section at a download site so that others can test it?

NVENC encoding should be as good as CPU encoding at such high bit rates. I also only partially agree with Musicvid, I would leave the 150 or go higher, after all this is 4K 60p. You may also try and render to XAVC-I, provided it does 4K 60p, I am not at my editing machine at the moment. That will render at a high bit rate and YT has no problem accepting the file. You could just test render the section in question and upload it.

Hey thanks for the recommendations! I'm not at my editing machine but I'll surely check out your suggestions when I get home from work. I do already disable resampling per video but it does make sense to make that my default in the project settings. I'll also double check the frame rate, though I'm rather confident on that front.

I tried to enable CBR but couldn't and haven't had the chance to figure out why. I plan to play with it more when I get home. Any ideas why the option for CBR is grayed out for me?

Also what you're saying about VP14 makes sense. I started with Vegas 13 and upgraded to 14 and the differences is nowhere near as large as I'm seeing with VP16.

You are correct that the source file does not have any issues. I'll have to see when I get home but I'm not sure if I have the cloud storage large enough to store the source file.

Last, are you suggesting I use 150 mbps or go higher? I'm not sure if I'm reading the last part of your post correctly. I have run multiple tests with the original project and the problem areas were fine at lower bit rates. The highest I could render with my previously posted settings has been 50 Mbps. I'm seeing if I can go higher with mainconcept encoding. Assuming this is encoding with just the CPU? When I started it before leaving for work, my CPU was being utilized much better and higher than NVENC encoding while my GPU was just sitting idle. I thought my GPU could assist even when I wasn't using NVidia's encoding but maybe not. Or maybe I still had GPU acceleration turned off. Not sure but I plan to play around more tonight. I have some projects in the back burner so the sooner I get this all figured out, the better.

Will keep you posted after I test it all out. Appreciate the response!

The "old" Mainconcept AVC encoder, like you see in SVP13 and had to enable in VP14 and 16, was written by Mainconcept for the older CUDA architecture which ended with the FERMI based Nvidia cards, GTX5xx series. While you can still use it in later versions of Vegas, it will be CPU only.

Not sure why the CBR is greyed out, maybe it makes no sense for this type of codec. Keep in mind that such codecs x264 and 265 are meant for high compression with good image quality. As such, using such a codec with high bit rates, beyond 100Mbps makes no sense to me and I would rater render to Sony XAVC-I or XAVC-S, again provided 4K 60p is possible.

Edit: I just checked and XAVC-I as well as XAVC-S Long offer 4k 59.94p.

Last, are you suggesting I use 150 mbps or go higher?

If YT is recommending 85Mbps then uploading 100 is not far off and since you still get issues, try increasing it.

I also checked bit rates with XAVC-S and XAVC-I. XAVC-S will give around 200Mbps and XAVC-I around 500Mbps; might be a bit high and make for long uploads?

I'll have to see when I get home but I'm not sure if I have the cloud storage large enough to store the source file.

Can you just upload the section in question?

also checked bit rates with XAVC-S and XAVC-I. XAVC-S will give around 200Mbps and XAVC-I around 500Mbps; might be a bit high and make for long upload

Depending on the compression method, average bitrates can vary wildly among files of exactly the same measured quality. AVC, XAVCS, XAVCI can't be compared by bitrate, because no such correlation has been shown to exist.

Bitrate Salad.

YouTube wants Long GOP Interframe Compression (avc, hevc).. For purposes of discussion, it might be better to base our bitrate choices and suggestions on that.

Can you just upload the section in question?

Yes, a source clip and steps to reproduce would be nice...