Vegas pro brightening blacks x264 conversion.

MajorFoley wrote on 8/23/2019, 1:26 PM

Hi guys so I am recording OBS footage using NVENC (not the turing RTX models though). I record them in MKV format with a rate control CQP at 15 and the quality is pretty good and the size is decent as well. a 13 minute video is about 3.22GB for a 1080P 60FPS video. From here i have a couple of questions. I know that everytime you compress you do lose a bit more quality, but why do blacks seem to get lighter after a conversion here? I'm pretty sure im using Keep input colorspace in my X264 settings (screenshots provided)

And here are the settings

Uh anyway to hide them under a spoiler tag so they don't make the post too big? New to this forum

Comments

MajorFoley wrote on 9/2/2019, 3:45 AM

Bump

Marco. wrote on 9/2/2019, 4:45 AM

Compare the brightness of source and rendered video inside Vegas Pro instead of in an external player. Same?

Sylk wrote on 9/2/2019, 4:51 AM

Hi @MajorFoley

Perhaps a possible Linear to Full Range conversion during process.

[OS] : Windows 10 Ent. x64 v1903 (18362.356) // (18362.295 if posted before 9/24/19)
[NLE] : Vegas Pro 17.0 (Build 321) // (Build 284 if posted before 9/24/19)
[DRV] : Studio 431.86 (Display, PhysX, HD Audio) // (Game Ready 436.15 if posted before 9/24/19)

[GPU] : Gainward GeForce GTX 1080 Phoenix GLH
[CPU] : Intel Core i7-2600K @3.4GHz OC@4.5GHz (HyperThreaded) | AirCooling: Noctua NH-D14
[RAM] : 16GB (4x 4GB GSkill Ripjaws X DDR3 1600MHz 9-9-9-24) @1333MHz
[SSD] : Samsung 850 Pro 256GB
[MOB] : Asus P8P67 Deluxe (Rev.1), doesn't support iGPU
[PSU] : Corsair HX750

[DSP1] : 30" DELL UltraSharp U3011 @2560x1600
[DSP2] : 26" iiyama ProLite E2607WS @1920x1200

[UPS] : Eaton 5PX 2200i RT

[DEVICES] : GoPro Hero3 Black, Hero4 Black. Apple iPhone 6S.

Musicvid wrote on 9/2/2019, 3:47 PM

If your source is leveled for YUV (709) and you are rendering to AVI, keeping the input color space is incorrect. You want RGB color space for AVI.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

The question is why are you rendering to x264vfw and not MP4?

MajorFoley wrote on 9/3/2019, 4:36 AM

I forgot to mention although the video is 601 i have an exact same copy with 709, i just compared and they are both the same so it doesnt seem to be the case of 601 vs 709 here.
 

Compare the brightness of source and rendered video inside Vegas Pro instead of in an external player. Same?

Preview player shows the file as the original so its proper black. Same with the converted files for some reason...

Hi @MajorFoley

Perhaps a possible Linear to Full Range conversion during process.

Maybe? But considering it's already limited according the file i thought keep/input colourspace would be keeping the same partial colour chosen? That being said the convert to YUV 4:2:0 does the same thing and you cant use keep YUV 4:2:0 because it comes up with the error selected codec does not support render settings.

 

If your source is leveled for YUV (709) and you are rendering to AVI, keeping the input color space is incorrect. You want RGB color space for AVI.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

The question is why are you rendering to x264vfw and not MP4?

Well i used to use virtual dub to compress my videos back when i was starting out with FRAPS which used raw video at the time never really came to mind to change settings if they kept working. and i thought MP4 was just mainly the container and not the video settings? What would you suggest then in the Render as options?

As for choosing the RGB option same thing happens. Guess i should have posted my OBS settings in general as well. Here are a couple of screenshots showing the main settings.

So the current steps i have so far is i record it to MKV using NVENC H.264, then remux it using the OBS remuxing tool so Vegas can accept the video. And then try rendering it with x264 to save a bit more space. If i wanted to render with the exact same settings with no compression. Like just add an intro and an outro to the video how could i go about doing that? The file size for about a minute of video is about 230MB and some of these videos are gonna be around 30 minutes to an hour

Sylk wrote on 9/3/2019, 5:57 AM
So the current steps i have so far is i record it to MKV using NVENC H.264, then remux it using the OBS remuxing tool so Vegas can accept the video. And then try rendering it with x264 to save a bit more space. If i wanted to render with the exact same settings with no compression. Like just add an intro and an outro to the video how could i go about doing that? The file size for about a minute of video is about 230MB and some of these videos are gonna be around 30 minutes to an hour

What happens if you select different Color Range than Partial (like Complete, i guess) ?

About MKV NVENC import with Vegas, if 17, you have to change some settings from Preferences > File I/O tab : check the both checkboxes and as Hardware Decoder select NVidia NVDEC.

Last changed by Sylk on 9/3/2019, 6:02 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

[OS] : Windows 10 Ent. x64 v1903 (18362.356) // (18362.295 if posted before 9/24/19)
[NLE] : Vegas Pro 17.0 (Build 321) // (Build 284 if posted before 9/24/19)
[DRV] : Studio 431.86 (Display, PhysX, HD Audio) // (Game Ready 436.15 if posted before 9/24/19)

[GPU] : Gainward GeForce GTX 1080 Phoenix GLH
[CPU] : Intel Core i7-2600K @3.4GHz OC@4.5GHz (HyperThreaded) | AirCooling: Noctua NH-D14
[RAM] : 16GB (4x 4GB GSkill Ripjaws X DDR3 1600MHz 9-9-9-24) @1333MHz
[SSD] : Samsung 850 Pro 256GB
[MOB] : Asus P8P67 Deluxe (Rev.1), doesn't support iGPU
[PSU] : Corsair HX750

[DSP1] : 30" DELL UltraSharp U3011 @2560x1600
[DSP2] : 26" iiyama ProLite E2607WS @1920x1200

[UPS] : Eaton 5PX 2200i RT

[DEVICES] : GoPro Hero3 Black, Hero4 Black. Apple iPhone 6S.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/3/2019, 7:10 AM
So the current steps i have so far is i record it to MKV using NVENC H.264, then remux it using the OBS remuxing tool so Vegas can accept the video. And then try rendering it with x264 to save a bit more space. If i wanted to render with the exact same settings with no compression. Like just add an intro and an outro to the video how could i go about doing that? The file size for about a minute of video is about 230MB and some of these videos are gonna be around 30 minutes to an hour

What happens if you select different Color Range than Partial (like Complete, i guess) ?

About MKV NVENC import with Vegas, if 17, you have to change some settings from Preferences > File I/O tab : check the both checkboxes and as Hardware Decoder select NVidia NVDEC.

I'm using 15 which i got from the humble software bundle doesn't outright accept MKV which is why OBS includes a muxer so to MP4. Reason being is if something happens you can't really salvage an MP4 file, its a warning included when choosing a format. Full range seems interesting and i have a video with that it seems to make one of the characters skins darker than it looks, the video looks different a little to the actual gameplay! (Screenshot provided) Whereas partial seems to match it (although i may have to double check).

Notice the 2 front characters on the right their colours seem a bit darker

This is a screenshot of it in game

And this is of the full range colour form the video recorded

 

Musicvid wrote on 9/3/2019, 8:59 AM

When your mind has stopped chattering, take note that everything you have reported is entirely normal and as to be expected. Breathe, count to ten, and follow me in the next paragraph.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/3/2019, 3:36 AM

I forgot to mention although the video is 601 i have an exact same copy with 709, i just compared and they are both the same so it doesnt seem to be the case of 601 vs 709 here.

Absolutely no difference in levels.

Preview player shows the file as the original so its proper black. Same with the converted files for some reason...

Entirely as expected.

Well i used to use virtual dub to compress my videos back when i was starting out with FRAPS 

Them be apples. These be oranges.

As for choosing the RGB option same thing happens. Guess i should have posted my OBS settings in general as well. Here are a couple of screenshots showing the main settings.

No, you should be leveling your output using the histogram and Levels fx. AVI expects 0-255, YUV expects 16-235. There are occasional exceptions. But we wouldn't know that without seeing your input and output file properties, not pictures of your settings. This is where we usually start:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

You "could" over-rationalize this thing to death. Fortunately, I've already beat you to it. Upload a sample of your source and I'll turn it into AVI that plays the same in vlc (notice I didn't say "is" the same in Vegas preview!)

Do you think the original video and the AVI should look the same in Vegas' preview? Don't think that.

This isn't our first rodeo, dude. Breathe out, read, chuckle a bit, and learn to make leveling automatic, rather than shouting at the hurricane.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

 

MajorFoley wrote on 9/5/2019, 5:10 AM

When your mind has stopped chattering, take note that everything you have reported is entirely normal and as to be expected. Breathe, count to ten, and follow me in the next paragraph.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/3/2019, 3:36 AM

I forgot to mention although the video is 601 i have an exact same copy with 709, i just compared and they are both the same so it doesnt seem to be the case of 601 vs 709 here.

Absolutely no difference in levels.

Preview player shows the file as the original so its proper black. Same with the converted files for some reason...

Entirely as expected.

Well i used to use virtual dub to compress my videos back when i was starting out with FRAPS 

Them be apples. These be oranges.

As for choosing the RGB option same thing happens. Guess i should have posted my OBS settings in general as well. Here are a couple of screenshots showing the main settings.

No, you should be leveling your output using the histogram and Levels fx. AVI expects 0-255, YUV expects 16-235. There are occasional exceptions. But we wouldn't know that without seeing your input and output file properties, not pictures of your settings. This is where we usually start:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

You "could" over-rationalize this thing to death. Fortunately, I've already beat you to it. Upload a sample of your source and I'll turn it into AVI that plays the same in vlc (notice I didn't say "is" the same in Vegas preview!)

Do you think the original video and the AVI should look the same in Vegas' preview? Don't think that.

This isn't our first rodeo, dude. Breathe out, read, chuckle a bit, and learn to make leveling automatic, rather than shouting at the hurricane.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

 

Ok if i were to summurize your saying im over-reacting lol. Okay i get that and really it is my own fault for jumping to a program i have very little knowledge about (i am going through the tutorial tab above when I can). If it were your opinion then what would i render to? . For the record everything right now is recorded with OBS because i don't have FRAPS installed on this machine :) I could change OBS to use a different color format as they offer NV12 I420 I444 and RGB as well as the full color range if i wanted to.
Ok under this code are the output for the media although i dont think this forum would accept a 234MB video if you really wanted me to upload it?
I also usually match project settings when i inserted a video clip, i assume this wouldn't be the best idea
 

General
Unique ID                   : 164623871234999254799709372299641578138 (0x7BD9678155B96FA703B7ADF4887F629A)
Complete name               : F:\OBS Tests\NVENC Advanced CQP 15 601.mkv
Format                      : Matroska
Format version              : Version 4
File size                   : 202 MiB
Duration                    : 1 min 4 s
Overall bit rate mode       : Variable
Overall bit rate            : 26.5 Mb/s
Writing application         : Lavf57.84.100
Writing library             : Lavf57.84.100
ErrorDetectionType          : Per level 1

Video
ID                          : 1
Format                      : AVC
Format/Info                 : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile              : Main@L4.2
Format settings             : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC      : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames   : 2 frames
Codec ID                    : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                    : 1 min 4 s
Bit rate mode               : Variable
Maximum bit rate            : 40.0 Mb/s
Width                       : 1 920 pixels
Height                      : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio        : 16:9
Frame rate mode             : Constant
Frame rate                  : 60.000 FPS
Color space                 : YUV
Chroma subsampling          : 4:2:0
Bit depth                   : 8 bits
Scan type                   : Progressive
Default                     : Yes
Forced                      : No
Color range                 : Limited
Matrix coefficients         : BT.470 System B/G

Audio
ID                          : 2
Format                      : AAC LC
Format/Info                 : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                    : A_AAC-2
Duration                    : 1 min 4 s
Channel(s)                  : 2 channels
Channel layout              : L R
Sampling rate               : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate                  : 43.066 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode            : Lossy
Title                       : Track1
Default                     : Yes
Forced                      : No

 

Vegas file properties

General
  Name: NVENC Advanced CQP 15 601.mp4
  Folder: F:\OBS Tests
  Type: AVC
  Size: 207.35 MB (212,328,340 bytes)
  Created: Monday, April 8, 2019, 5:03:21 PM
  Modified: Monday, April 8, 2019, 5:03:22 PM
  Accessed: Monday, April 8, 2019, 5:03:22 PM
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 00:01:04.050, 60.000 fps progressive, 1920x1080x32, AVC
  Audio: 00:01:03.993, 44,100 Hz, Stereo, AAC

Summary
  [TCFM]: 7

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: so4compoundplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 15.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\so4compoundplug
  Format: AVC
  Version: Version 1.0 (Build 8532)
  Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

 

Musicvid wrote on 9/5/2019, 5:46 AM

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I hope you were told there is a steeper learning curve with this program.

1. See if this makes any difference. If not, switch it back.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/avc-xavc-s-issues-in-vp15-try-disabling-so4compoundplug-dll--108345/

2. Open your file in Vegas. Open the Histogram. Which range setting looks most like yours in the Vegas Preview? Not some player.

RGB -- or -- YUV ?

Post a screenshot of your own if you like.

Now, run your test, and post the result file properties. Also, render a short sample of the output ~30 seconds, and upload that to Drive or Dropbox, not Youtube.

That's all until we see your data.

BABY STEPS.

 

MajorFoley wrote on 9/5/2019, 10:16 AM

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I hope you were told there is a steeper learning curve with this program.

1. See if this makes any difference. If not, switch it back.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/avc-xavc-s-issues-in-vp15-try-disabling-so4compoundplug-dll--108345/

2. Open your file in Vegas. Open the Histogram. Which range setting looks most like yours in the Vegas Preview? Not some player.

RGB -- or -- YUV ?

Post a screenshot of your own if you like.

Now, run your test, and post the result file properties. Also, render a short sample of the output ~30 seconds, and upload that to Drive or Dropbox, not Youtube.

That's all until we see your data.

BABY STEPS. I'm a retired teacher and I have a short fuse.

 

Uh by histogram you mean luminance R/G/B? Looks like this

 

Musicvid wrote on 9/5/2019, 10:42 AM

Is that the histogram of your source? Then it is YUV 16-235, as expected and correctly encoded. That was the first thing we needed to know.

Now, you want to make an x264vfw AVI to play on VLC, media center, etc.? Please describe in detail what you plan to do.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/5/2019, 10:58 AM

Is that the histogram of your source? Then it is YUV 16-235, as expected and correctly encoded. That was the first thing we needed to know.

Now, you want to make an x264vfw AVI to play on VLC, media center, etc.? Please describe in detail what you plan to do.

Just compress a bit more, the gameplay videos i plan on making for youtube will be on average at least 30 minutes long. Judging by the same settings for about 13 minutes = around 3GB, which isn't really that bad since i got decent net now but i want to compress the size a bit more before uploading to youtube. I just use VLC to compare see if the compression has taken away too much detail or makes it blurry.

If there is a better render option than X264xfw that i have used since FRAPS I'm all ears.

 

EDIT: Thought i mention just before i went to bed i did a couple of tests on Vdub, EXACT same x264 settings and it does the conversion no issue which is weird to me. I also just tried playing the files in standard Windows media player and the issue of the brightness wasn't there... I'm just so confused so maybe it is just VLC doing this? But when i did a test upload to youtube it produced the same results as VLC did, showed bright on the Rendered video
Tomorrow i'm going to try some of the MAGIX AVC and HEVC render options and see what happens.

Musicvid wrote on 9/5/2019, 12:23 PM

YouTube? Wow. It expects MP4 /AVC with AAC audio. If it doesn't get that, it reformats everything. Shittily.

"If" you were to convert to AVI (WHY??) you would need to add the Studio RGB -> Computer RGB filter to the output do the colorspace conversion, and NOT muck with the metadata flag. Or even use x264vfw. a whole kludge in itself.

EDIT: Thought i mention just before i went to bed i did a couple of tests on Vdub, EXACT same x264 settings and it does the conversion no issue which is weird to me. I guess it must be some kind of setting in vegas that does it.

Again last time. Them be apples. These be oranges.

MP4 and AVI container formats are as different as night and day. Do you think they should be the same if they can both render x264 codec? That's just jabberwocky.

If there is a better render option than X264xfw that i have used since FRAPS I'm all ears.

OBS with Magix AVC Internet template. Or real x264 in Happy Otter for Vegas. Or Handbrake. Or what you were doing, which worked for you before, but I can promise won't work for you here.

"The first thing you need to do to get out of a hole is to stop digging."

I strongly recommend you stop thinking, and start seeing and making better mistakes. That's the honest version.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/5/2019, 1:07 PM

YouTube? Wow. It expects MP4 /AVC with AAC audio. If it doesn't get that, it converts everything. Shittily.

"If" you were to convert to AVI (WHY??) you would need to add the Studio RGB -> Computer RGB filter to the output do the colorspace conversion, and NOT muck with the metadata flag. Or even use x264vfw. a whole kludge in itself.

EDIT: Thought i mention just before i went to bed i did a couple of tests on Vdub, EXACT same x264 settings and it does the conversion no issue which is weird to me. I guess it must be some kind of setting in vegas that does it.

Again: Them be apples. These be oranges.

MP4 and AVI container formats are as different as night and day. Do you think they should be the same if they both render x264? That's just jabberwocky.

"The first thing you need to do to get out of a hole is to stop digging."

I strongly recommend you stop thinking, and start making better mistakes. That's the honest version.

Can't all be pros i guess. Rendering into MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 then does it matter if the presets are 59.94FPS when the videos are 60? Is this going to de-sync audio video at any point for longer videos? Don't think its gonna matter if i use NVENC or CPU render this thing. And quite honestly with apples/oranges comment i thought you were referring to the RGB/YUV not the programs themselves although you could have also meant both. So yes i am sorry.

Musicvid wrote on 9/5/2019, 1:47 PM

Here are the exact directions to render a video with the histogram you shared into great mp4 for YouTube or VLC.

1. Open the video.

2. Render to Magix AVC Internet 1920x1080 p60. Don't use NVENC because you say you are concerned about quality. You may be able to type in the software render to 60.000 fps If not, disable event resample.

3. Pop a beer, because we are both now done.

MajorFoley wrote on 9/5/2019, 2:31 PM

Here are the exact directions to render a video with the histogram you shared into great mp4 for YouTube or VLC.

1. Open the video.

2. Render to Magix AVC Internet 1920x1080 p60. Don't use NVENC because you say you are concerned about quality. You may be able to type in the software render to 60.000 fps If not, disable event resample.

3. Pop a beer, because we are both now done.

Sorry to seem to have caused trouble for you then :(
Thank you for the help given. Also despite being Aussie, I don't drink Beer :)
Wish you luck for the next person you help.

Musicvid wrote on 9/5/2019, 3:45 PM

And I apologize equally for displaying impatience.

The second biggest problem we have here is people arriving with excess baggage. The biggest one is entitlements.

It takes far less time to teach a basic set of skills and principles in Vegas than continually trying to unravel the spider's nest of street hype, speculation, denial, and presumptions based on workflows, real or imagined. Game capturers, for some reason, are especially notorious for this.

Wishing you the best of luck with the next question you ask, and there will be some.

Please read this in the meantime:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/speaking-good-video-a-beginner-s-guide--104463/