Version 17 and Cineform

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/12/2019, 11:04 PM

I have a project that the bulk of was done in Version 16. I had done a lot of compositing in the current version of Hitfilm pro. These composites were brought into 16, and cut as normal, and everything was fine. These composites were rendered out of hitfilm as Cineform CFHD in a .MOV wrapper. For the life of me, opening the same project in Vegas 17 brings up an unsupported file type. That being all of the CFHD MOV files. Even if I launch a new project, and try to import these files, I get an unsupported file type error, and they wont open. If I go back to V16, they are fine. I will have to finish the film in Vegas 16 for now. But can anyone shed a light on the fact that 17 clearly wont load the Cineform decoder?

 

Comments

Kinvermark wrote on 11/12/2019, 11:32 PM

Vegas 17 has quicktime disabled by default. There is a setting to re-enable it, but I can't remember where, and I am not currently using 17 so I can't check.

Personally I would like to see NATIVE support for cineform in Vegas, so we are not relying on an aging codec package from GoPro and / or the now deprecated quicktime for Windows installation.

I have recently noticed that cineform is not 100% reliable in Vegas, and this is a major roadblock for me, especially given the severe limitation of other supported intermediate codec types. i.e. I currently no longer have a reliable way to move graded clips in from Resolve.

 

 

fr0sty wrote on 11/13/2019, 12:01 AM

Deprecated features tab of preferences.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

wwaag wrote on 11/13/2019, 12:29 AM

@Kinvermark

"I have recently noticed that cineform is not 100% reliable in Vegas, and this is a major roadblock for me, especially given the severe limitation of other supported intermediate codec types. i.e. I currently no longer have a reliable way to move graded clips in from Resolve."

Could you expand a bit on this? From my understanding (please correct me if I'm mistaken), even though Cineform is 10bit, once rendered from Vegas, it's really only 8bit up-sampled to 10-bit due to the fact its a VFW codec. It's the same limitation when you use the DebugMode FrameServer. You can see the difference comparing waveforms from Cineform vs MXF or ProRes renders. The only app that I'm aware of that has implemented the new open-source version of Cineform is VirtualDub2.

On a different front, hopefully, the MagicYUV developer will come up with a plug-in tailored for Vegas which will support his 10bit+ codecs in a similar fashion to Premiere. https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/magicyuv-2-20-released--117638/#ca733853

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero5 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/13/2019, 12:53 AM

@wwaag

My understanding is that cineform is an exception to the 8 bit vfw limitation when rendered from Vegas, but as I only (at this point) work with 8 bit footage this isn't an issue for me anyway. i.e. the quality of the codec is sufficient for my needs and serves other purposes (e.g. working timecode for xml exports, very smooth scrubbing in trimmer.)

The reliability issue is that when initially loading cineform media into the project media bins, the thumbnails and previews will occasionally be blank. This can be corrected by closing and reopening the project. However (and far more importantly) events will sometimes go "blank" (black) during editing and rendering. This is a problem.

Now, I could use another intermediate like MagicYUV but then of course it needs to be supported by the other applications I use. In this case Davinci Resolve. At the moment, there is no codec other than cineform that can act as an intermediate between Resolve and Vegas. So I am a little stuck - unless one or both of these programs adds wider support for intermediate codecs. Or Magix "fixes" cineform support. (assuming it is broken on more than just my machine, which it may not be.)

Marco. wrote on 11/13/2019, 1:54 AM

Yes, CineForm is the only 3rd party AVI codec which really works in 10 bit. Maybe this is a relict from former times when once CineForm was integrated as a native Vegas Pro codec.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/13/2019, 2:35 AM

OK, I thought about this and, of course, over time one's system changes, with various installs-uninstalls-reinstalls. So I though maybe I should try a "clean-out" of the cineform encoders / decoders. Found out that somehow, older codec versions had "crept?" into the program files (x86) \cineform \ tools folder - which is where Vegas looks.

So I moved all the "dross" to an OLD subfolder and did some testing.

Here's the odd part: If I copy the latest codecs from my Davinci Resolve install into the program files (x86) \cineform \ tools  folder, the Vegas will use them... apparently with ZERO errors. And it may even be faster than before.

fred-w wrote on 11/13/2019, 4:23 PM

Yes, CineForm is the only 3rd party AVI codec which really works in 10 bit. Maybe this is a relict from former times when once CineForm was integrated as a native Vegas Pro codec.

@Marco. ...Let me assume that you are not forgetting about the Sony 10 Bit YUV (available in video for windows drop down menu) which works quite well.

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/13/2019, 4:32 PM

Very helpful information, but does anyone know why V17 will not read a cfhd in a .mov wrapper, yet V16 has no issue with using them at all?

fred-w wrote on 11/13/2019, 4:44 PM

Very helpful information, but does anyone know why V17 will not read a cfhd in a .mov wrapper, yet V16 has no issue with using them at all?

Have you checked "Deprecated Features" (in Preferences) menu item for QT?

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/13/2019, 4:54 PM

Very helpful information, but does anyone know why V17 will not read a cfhd in a .mov wrapper, yet V16 has no issue with using them at all?

Have you checked "Deprecated Features" (in Preferences) menu item for QT?

 

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/13/2019, 4:54 PM

Is this on PC your refering to? Or a mac thing?

Marco. wrote on 11/13/2019, 5:09 PM

Sony YUV is not a 3rd party but a native Vegas Pro codec, just like HDCAM SR.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/13/2019, 5:48 PM

@jamie-oxenham

Did you skip over the answers we gave ?

Vegas 17 has quicktime disabled by default. There is a setting to re-enable it, but I can't remember where, and I am not currently using 17 so I can't check.

and then...

Deprecated features tab of preferences.

Yes. we are only talking about PC's. There is no Mac version. Vegas 16 does not have quicktime disabled.

 

 

fifonik wrote on 11/13/2019, 5:54 PM

Is this on PC your refering to? Or a mac thing?


This is in VP17 preferences. On PC.

Camcorder: Panasonic X920

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700X (not OC), RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4@3200 (not OC), Graphics card: MSI RX580 8GB (factory OC), SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ NVMe 500MB (OS), HDDs: Seagate & Toshiba 2TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 1909

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17

Musicvid wrote on 11/13/2019, 5:58 PM

Yes, CineForm is the only 3rd party AVI codec which really works in 10 bit. Maybe this is a relict from former times when once CineForm was integrated as a native Vegas Pro codec.

Natively, Sony YUV has always presented two versions, 8 and 10 bit. The ten bit rendered 30% larger when I tested.

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/13/2019, 6:03 PM

Is this on PC your refering to? Or a mac thing?


This is in VP17 preferences. On PC.

Sorry guys, i was unable to get to it until now. Thank you very much for the answer to my problem! That seems to have solved it! Again, thank you for your help! I very much appreciate it!!!!!

Kinvermark wrote on 11/13/2019, 6:17 PM

@jamie-oxenham

Glad it's working. Quick question: if you drag & drop a lot (e.g. 60) of mov clips from the Vegas explorer window to the timeline does it crash?

Musicvid wrote on 11/13/2019, 6:17 PM

To express your appreciation, you might choose to mark one of the replies as The Solution. We are all volunteers here.

fred-w wrote on 11/13/2019, 6:54 PM

Sony YUV is not a 3rd party but a native Vegas Pro codec, just like HDCAM SR.

@Marco. Yes, that was my assumption, that you would include Sony YUV as a Vegas native codec. Thanks for clarifying. What else can render in 10 bit? Marco, anyone? I have Magic YUV which will NOT, per right now (developer working on it?) render in 10 bit.

jamie-oxenham wrote on 11/13/2019, 6:57 PM

@jamie-oxenham

Glad it's working. Quick question: if you drag & drop a lot (e.g. 60) of mov clips from the Vegas explorer window to the timeline does it crash?

I dont think I jave ever done that!!!!!

Marco. wrote on 11/14/2019, 1:26 AM

"What else can render in 10 bit?"

10 Bit: HDCAM SR, X-AVC, CineForm, Sony YUV/V210, ProRes, HEVC

Up to 16 Bit: DPX

Float Point: EXR

 

wwaag wrote on 11/14/2019, 10:35 AM

@Kinvermark

Thanks for the reply regarding problems with Cineform. The black frame/clip problem has been around forever it seems and has never been fixed. Avi's seem most susceptible. The old solution of "close Vegas and restart" still seems appropriate, especially prior to renders. I still get the occasional "black clip" with V17 for mp4 footage.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero5 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/14/2019, 11:09 AM

@wwaag

Yes, the two main issues for cineform appear to be occasional BLACK FRAMES and ASSERTION ERRORS from the Windows runtime component (occurs if you try to load too many files at once). I don't know which is worse - in general one can manage both, but it is a hassle.

For other / future readers: I found that using the cineform encoder/decoder pair from Davinci Resolve gave no black frames, but often yielded an assertion error. Other versions of the codec are the reverse. In the end I would suggest sticking to the download of the last version Gopro published - which can be found on Dr. Zens' moviestudiozen website.

So back to my original claim: Vegas should have native support for cineform that is tested & stable. Alternatively they need something else that can act as an intermediate between other programs. This could be MXF flavours of DNXHD, etc. ( but NOT quicktime for obvious reasons.) Resolve does not render ProRes from Windows, or VFW avi files, so that is another roadblock (not Vegas's fault, but IIWIS.) Resolve is also unlikely to support MagicYUV.

I think these comments also apply to interacting with programs other than Resolve, which leads me to the observation that Vegas is in danger of becoming an island, which in my view would restrict its usefulness.

 

Marco. wrote on 11/14/2019, 11:12 AM

"Alternatively they need something else that can act as an intermediate between other programs."

What about X-AVC and Sony YUV (which actually is V210)?