Best codec for 1080/50p at 50mbps

relaxvideo wrote on 3/12/2016, 12:56 AM
I make nature films around in 1 hour long.
I like to preserve this edited video in best format (and delete source files), but don't want to make huuge files. (ok i know this is a little paradox).

But i search a good codec for this, which give me the best result at around 50mbps.
So i can archive my video to one 25GB BD disc and on a hard drive.

What i already tried:

- built in Sony, Mainconcept AVC - blurs fine details even at 50mbps
- MXF standard can do only 50i with fullhd
- MXF HDCAM - can do 50p, but files are huge
- Lagarith avi - lossless, but big files
- Canopus HQ/HQX - visually lossless, but still huge files for my needs

And the winner? Frameserver + Ripbot264 with this parameters:
--level 4.2 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-bufsize 50000 --vbv-maxrate 70000 --b-pyramid none --keyint 50

I can playback this MP4 files with most devices, can import back to the timeline, edit if needed, no colors/levels shift and the quality is very, very good. For 90% of my
videos i don't see any difference when compared on the timeline with the originals.

Any other tips? :)

Be aware if you want to use my method you have to use this avisynth script:

AviSource("S:\frameserved.avi")
Trim (0, FrameCount-1-Floor(FrameRate)) - cut debugmode audio bug at the end
ConvertToYV12(matrix="PC.709") - important! result no color shift

So you have to open this AVS file in ripbot.

If you are not satisfied with ripbot max 128kbit AAC encoding quality, render the audio to sony AVC (audio only) at 256kbps, and mux the video and audio with YAMB.

Hope it help for somebody.

Comments

Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/12/2016, 8:47 AM
Why not just output your movie as a BluRay?
relaxvideo wrote on 3/12/2016, 9:02 AM
Sorry? Bluray accept 1080/50p?
wwaag wrote on 3/12/2016, 9:50 AM
Any other tips?

Have you tried XAVC S? It has a bit rate of 60 Mbps and also PCM audio. No compromising the audio using Frameserver (48 to 44 and back to 48 Khz). I use it as an intermediate and also for archiving. It also plays well with most media players including my Sony blu-ray player.

wwaag

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

Hulk wrote on 3/12/2016, 9:59 AM
I'm not surprised that frameserving to Ripbot gives the best result but I am surprised at the bit rate required. What is your average bit rate? What is the content of the video? Lots of water waves and other high motion scenes?
musicvid10 wrote on 3/12/2016, 10:29 AM
Have you tried Handbrake?
Quality-based encoding does not require a bitrate metric, such as 50 Mbps.
relaxvideo wrote on 3/12/2016, 11:21 AM
Ups, i forget to try XAVC-S, thanks.

Audio is not a problem with my method, because i mux with 256kbps AAC rendered from Vegas.

Hulk: i can see the difference between 30 and 50 mpbs. Ok, not while playing, just when comparing at the timeline. Especially at waters and scenes where there is very fine detail with similar colors.
And 50mbps is fine for me, because the result will fit on a 25GB disc.

Yes, nature films usually have lot of water(falls), etc :)

I tried handbrake before, but ripbot is more friendly to me.

relaxvideo wrote on 3/14/2016, 3:40 AM
Tried XAVC-S. Not bad, but still ripbot is the winner!
It's better especially at fine details in water scenes.



Byron K wrote on 3/14/2016, 2:26 PM
Interesting... I've never heard of Ripbot until now and researched a little. It's a pretty powerful tool.
Here's a side by side comparison between Handbrake and Ripbot that was useful. Anyone else use or prefer Ripbot over Handbrake?

https://www.pretzellogix.net/2015/03/12/handbrake-vs-ripbot264-fight/
john_dennis wrote on 3/15/2016, 12:04 AM

Here is a thread from last year that might be of interest. A past comparison of encoders.

And one about the horribly difficult video that we try to encode. It ain’t gonna look good at 3 mbps.

Last changed by john_dennis on 4/12/2017, 3:35 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

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relaxvideo wrote on 3/15/2016, 2:21 AM
Hmm, how can we compare different encodings, when youtube recompress everything at much lower bitrate?
john_dennis wrote on 3/15/2016, 3:18 AM
I just thought it was interesting.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

musicvid10 wrote on 3/15/2016, 8:40 AM
Handbrake and Ripbot use the same x264 encoder.
So only a comparison of front end features is valid, and people tend to stick with the one they started with; it's human nature.

That said, Ripbot uses ffdshow libraries, which is of some concern to me because of difficulties in the distant past.
relaxvideo wrote on 3/15/2016, 1:16 PM
I still prefer ripbot, because it read my AVS (frameserved) file directly,
no need for installing AVS2AVI and Pismo File Mount.
musicvid10 wrote on 3/15/2016, 3:31 PM
Yes, but direct frameserving to HB would probably mean skipping the scan pass, which is needed for advanced filtering.

relaxvideo wrote on 3/15/2016, 3:34 PM
I'm fine without advanced filtering :)
relaxvideo wrote on 9/13/2016, 2:31 PM

Today i have to archive a parrot video, but this is hard to encode with the ripbot method.
Red object's edge is more pixelated due to 420 chroma subsampling.
Fortunately x264 encoder support 422 or even 444 chroma format, but not Ripbot.
I created a 422 file with ffmpeg, rewrapped to mp4 container, but as i import it to Vegas,
the whole frame is green. Why?
What could be the solution at 50 mbps bitrate?

See here the problem:

http://tinyurl.com/gqr5skh

thanks!

Last changed by relaxvideo on 9/13/2016, 2:34 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

i7-2600, 32GB, 1660Ti studio driver, SSD, LG 3D monitor +3DTV

Ryzen 5-1600, 16GB, 1660 Super, M2-SSD, Acer freesync monitor

Win10 x64, Vegas19 b648

NormanPCN wrote on 9/13/2016, 4:36 PM

Fortunately x264 encoder support 422 or even 444 chroma format, but not Ripbot.
I created a 422 file with ffmpeg, rewrapped to mp4 container, but as i import it to Vegas,
the whole frame is green. Why?
 

The normal AVC decoder in Vegas only supports 420 video. Only the XAVC AVC decoder supports 422 video. Vegas will only use this decoder if the AVC video is in an MXF file.

Musicvid wrote on 9/13/2016, 6:29 PM

Targeting a particular bitrate is an inefficient way to preserve optimum quality for compressed archives.

CRF in Handbrake (or ripbot, I assume) adjusts the bitrate to match the frame and temporal complexity, thus saving you a little to a lot of space for your archives. 

relaxvideo wrote on 9/14/2016, 1:12 AM

Ok, so what could be the solution?
I have to mux it to MXF format? Which free software can do this?

I tried creating an MXF file with ffmpeg and  mediamuxer trial, but the result won't import in Vegas :(
Also mxflib mxfwrap command line give an error message: could not identify the essence in file "422.264"

Any other tips?

Musicvid:
yes, i know, but (almost constant) 50 mbps is acceptable for me.
Now this is a chroma subsampling issue not a bitrate. thanks anyway

Last changed by relaxvideo on 9/14/2016, 1:16 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

i7-2600, 32GB, 1660Ti studio driver, SSD, LG 3D monitor +3DTV

Ryzen 5-1600, 16GB, 1660 Super, M2-SSD, Acer freesync monitor

Win10 x64, Vegas19 b648

vjsouza wrote on 9/14/2016, 7:10 AM
I make nature films around in 1 hour long.
I like to preserve this edited video in best format (and delete source files), but don't want to make huuge files. (ok i know this is a little paradox).

But i search a good codec for this, which give me the best result at around 50mbps.
So i can archive my video to one 25GB BD disc and on a hard drive.

What i already tried:

- built in Sony, Mainconcept AVC - blurs fine details even at 50mbps
- MXF standard can do only 50i with fullhd
- MXF HDCAM - can do 50p, but files are huge
- Lagarith avi - lossless, but big files
- Canopus HQ/HQX - visually lossless, but still huge files for my needs

And the winner? Frameserver + Ripbot264 with this parameters:
--level 4.2 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-bufsize 50000 --vbv-maxrate 70000 --b-pyramid none --keyint 50

I can playback this MP4 files with most devices, can import back to the timeline, edit if needed, no colors/levels shift and the quality is very, very good. For 90% of my
videos i don't see any difference when compared on the timeline with the originals.

Any other tips? :)

Be aware if you want to use my method you have to use this avisynth script:

AviSource("S:\frameserved.avi")
Trim (0, FrameCount-1-Floor(FrameRate)) - cut debugmode audio bug at the end
ConvertToYV12(matrix="PC.709") - important! result no color shift

So you have to open this AVS file in ripbot.

If you are not satisfied with ripbot max 128kbit AAC encoding quality, render the audio to sony AVC (audio only) at 256kbps, and mux the video and audio with YAMB.

Hope it help for somebody.

I use Debugmode Frameserver with Magix Vegas Pro 13. This frameserver make a "bridge" between Vegas Pro and TMPGEnc Mastering Works 5. This is the BEST MP4 H.264 encoder. So, you can render your 1920x1080 50p or 60p at 10000 or 20000kbps. First, you render a separate WAV file, then, render as debugmode frameserver. After this, open TMPGEnc Mastering Wirks and import your frameserved .AVI file. I use this procedure to render files to MP4, PGMX and Blu-Ray compliant 1920x1080 29,97p and 1280x720 59,94p .264 files.

relaxvideo wrote on 9/14/2016, 7:24 AM

Yes, i also use debugmode frameserver.

But the important thing here: can TMPGEnc encode to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 color space h.264?

vjsouza wrote on 9/14/2016, 7:30 AM

Yes, i also use debugmode frameserver.

But the important thing here: can TMPGEnc encode to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 color space h.264?

If you use TMPGEnc Mastering Works 6, YES! But, rendered MP4 Full HD 60p not play in my Panasonic Viera TV. If I render with Mastering Works 5, plays fine!

relaxvideo wrote on 9/14/2016, 7:37 AM

I don't want to play with a tv..
First post: "so i can archive my video to one 25GB BD disc and on a hard drive"

But this file will not be importable again to vegas, right? Does TMPGEnc support MXF output?

Musicvid wrote on 9/14/2016, 8:03 AM

Yes, superoptimal fixed bitrates will always work for archives, but not necessarilly for playback or storage without extraordinary accommodations.

I know of no freely available way of importing MOV or MP4 422 or 444 directly into Vegas yet, if that is what you have for your parrot video. The commercial software Raylight might be of interest to you. As far as MXF, Sony only supports its own commercial flavor at this time afaik.