Can't edit 720p multi-cam footage in Pro 16 -footage too choppy

jason-duncan wrote on 1/2/2019, 2:36 PM

short story:

Can't edit 720p multi-cam footage in Pro 16 (build 307). Footage
plays too choppy.

long story:

New computer build as-of October 2018. Finally got around to
edit a miniDV three camera show. Footage has been deinterlaced and upscaled to
720p 59.94fps (I know most will agree not to deinterlace and upscale. I have
another thread about that in BT709).

I know there is a multi-camera option in Vegas, but I like
cropping each angle in order to fit in the preview window.  The original raw 3-cam 480i footage plays
fine when cropped, only the new upscaled 720p cropped footage won't play. The
720p footage is just as choppy when using the proper multi-camera option also.  

I have GPU acceleration of video processing set to my card
(GeForce GTX 1080Ti). I've tried using Draft mode on Preview Quality. GPU set
to Performance, not Quality mode.  PowerOptions set to High performance, not Balanced. Had Geek Squad out and they
couldn't find anything wrong with the PC. But weren't familiar with Vegas.

The raw footage was transferred on a NVMe M.2 drive and the
deinterlaced footage is on a 6TB 5760rpm HDD. Do you think the problem is the
new [HD] footage is on a HDD and it's not fast enough? It takes about 20
minutes just to open up the project. As far as I understand, this build should
be able to handle multi-camera 1080 footage.

Build specs below:

-Windows 7/64 Ultimate

-MOBO: Asus PRIME X370-A  ATX AM4 [4x288-pin DIMM 64gb]

-CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 1800X 3.6GHz  8-core processor

-RAM: Corsair Vengeance LED [DDR4-3200 64gb] (set at 2866Mhz)

-GPU: ASUS  GeForce GTX 1080 Ti  11gb 

-STORAGE: Samsung 970 Evo 500gb NVMe M.2-2280 SSD (scratch drive)

-STORAGE: Samsung 950 Evo 500gb 2.5" SSD (OS + programs)

-STORAGE: [2] Western Digital Ae 6tb 3.5" 5760rpm HDD's (storage)

-PSU: Corsair RMx 750W 80+ gold fully modular ATX  


 

Comments

Former user wrote on 1/2/2019, 3:46 PM

Not a fix, but you could use the 480i footage as proxy to make smooth editing and then replace with your upscaled (which I would never do) footage.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 3:54 PM

Set your Project to match your source, not your output. This is fundamental. For what purpose are you upscaling and cropping? It sounds like you may need to prerender so that Vegas does not try to render the preview in real time, which your system resources may not be able to keep up with. Of course, just editing in multicam mode adds a lot of additional burden.

A complete set of resources for you is here, but there are very few reasons I would use software upscaling, unless your project already contains real 720 p source. It does not "change" anything to HD, just adds filler.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-can-i-make-my-video-preview-play-smoothly-in-vegas-pro--104624/

 

jason-duncan wrote on 1/2/2019, 5:58 PM

The only reason why I'm upscaling is because the footage has been deinterlaced, which produces 59.94fps. 720P supports a frame rate of 59.94. I deinterlaced because I just learned AVISynth and wanted to perform QTGMC. So in my script I deinterlaced and upscaled at the same time. 480i 29.97 to 720p 59.94.

I'm cropping so I can view each angle in the preview window. It's basically the same function as using the Multicamera option.

This project does contain real 720p (even though it started out as 480i), so matching the source not output doesn't apply here.

 

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 6:12 PM

Feel free to post the results of your experiments here.

For real world production, the losses you've introduced through software scaling aren't warranted.

59.94i contains half as many frames as 59.94p, so you may wish to revisit your thinking for the same reasons. What you've done is Interpolate 59.94 fields to 59.94 frames, which again is lossy.

This project does contain real 720p (even though it started out as 480i), so matching the source not output doesn't apply here.

We don't know yet how to turn SD into HD. But don't stop testing!

The fact that you are teachingtyourself Avisynth is commendable. Hope to see your tests soon!

jason-duncan wrote on 1/2/2019, 7:35 PM

Isn't NTSC DV footage 29.97 frames per second? or is it 59.94 fields per second, or are both the same thing?

But for fun n games, can't we just pretend the footage was shot at 720p and Vegas isn't responding the way it should? I'm sure I'd have this same problem if I was shooting with a HD cam. I realize deinterlacing and upscaling isn't recommended, but leaning AVISynth and all that it entails was sort-of a dream come true. So I'm really eager to work with [Progressive] footage.

Again the only reason for upscaling this SD footage is due to the new frame rate, which resulted from the deinterlace process.

When you say post the results here, do you mean the difference between the QTGMC'd file vs. the raw file that's had either Blend Fields or Smart Adaptive applied? Because showing the raw file you will obvisously see interlace artifacts. And it won't do any good to post a clip of all three angles. Anyone else's PC probably won't have the lagging.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 8:12 PM

jason-duncan wrote on 1/2/2019, 6:35 PM

Isn't NTSC DV footage 29.97 frames per second? or is it 59.94 fields per second, or are both the same thing?

They are exactly the same thing.

What you are trying to do is called "bobbing." It is not routine deinterlacing because it adds a synthesized (fake) field to each existing field to double the numbers of frames.

Nick can tell you how this works with QTGMC (I don't know), but I have tested it in Handbrake. And it increases PSNR (shadow noise) and of course the alternate fields are just filler..

Gamers want to believe that artificial "fluid motion," even with the visible (in my tests) quality hit, is somehow "better" than native frame rate (29.97p deinterlaced), but I have been completely unable to bear out this subjective impression through mathematical testing. Once again, hobbyists are welcome to their personal experiences, but bloggers trying to lay it on others as if it were gospel is quite another matter.

Software upscaling is still presumed to be inferior to letting your hardware player do the work.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 8:35 PM

But for fun n games, can't we just pretend the footage was shot at 720p and Vegas isn't responding the way it should? 

No. Vegas can not render the instructions for real time preview of edits nearly as fast as it can decode a rendered file that contains actual video data. Those are two completely separate functions of timeline editing! Touch it and the video is as good as gone until you render it. That goes double if the project does not exactly match source parameters.

Putting SD source in an HD project and then editing is the perfect storm for what will slow your preview down to a crawl. This is very important to understand.

Please read this link again. It may make more sense in light of this information. There are still no guarantees, and that is exactly what prerenders are there for.

Are you actually rendering this for YouTube? I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-can-i-make-my-video-preview-play-smoothly-in-vegas-pro--104624/

Former user wrote on 1/2/2019, 9:37 PM

The only reason why I'm upscaling is because the footage has been deinterlaced, which produces 59.97fps. 720P supports a frame rate of 59.94. I deinterlaced because I just learned AVISynth and wanted to perform QTGMC. So in my script I deinterlaced and upscaled at the same time. 480i 29.97 to 720p 59.97.

You do not need to use the QTGMC of the AviSynth. Vegas does a great job of video deinterlacing. Perhaps one of the best deinterlacings that exist in editing softwares. 

There are two types of deinterlacing:

a) The which holds all frames (60i becomes 60p). 
b) The one that discards alternating frames (60i becomes 30p). 
My personal experience has shown me that deinterlacing 60i to 60p maintains the smooth motion of the original interlaced video.

Climbing a video from 720x480 to 1280x720 in my personal point of view will not improve the image at all. I would leave at 720x480, but that is only my opinion based on my personal experience of the day to day.

Try the procedure that I show in the video below. It works well with me. I always get great results and the multi-camera does not present problems.

I'm cropping so I can view each angle in the preview window. It's basically the same function as using the Multicamera option.

The above video procedure will also work well for those who prefer to cut so they can see each angle in the preview window instead of using the multicam system.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 9:52 PM

Fun facts:

60i to 60p is not deinterlacing.

60i to 30p is deinterlacing.

Former user wrote on 1/2/2019, 10:21 PM

I would disagree with this. Interlaced NTSC is 30 frames, so in order to become 60 frames, the frames have to be either doubled or synthesized. I do agree that 60i looks good at 60p but not because the frames are held.

60i = 60 fields Interlaced (Upper field and lower field)

i = Interlaced = 2 fields per frame (Upper field and lower field)

29,970i = 29,970 frames with 2 interlaced fields per frame

29,970i x 2 fields interlaced per frame = 60i or more precisely 59,940i

Frames and fields are two totally different things. The procedure I mentioned in item "a)" converts each interlaced field (Upper and Lower) and a progressive frame so 60i becomes 60p.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 10:28 PM

No joelson, 29.97i is the SD designation for 59.94 consecutive fields (alternating half frames)

59.94i is the accepted HD designation for exactly the same thing, but only for horizontal resolutions equal or grater than 720 nonanamorphic.

This is entirely by definition, not by supposition.

At least it has been that way since the spec was introduced in 2003, when many of your forum peers were already editing video [cough]

Believe david_tu. He is not a mediocre contributor.

 

Former user wrote on 1/2/2019, 10:38 PM

I know what interlaced is, I worked with it over 30 years. NTSC video is 29.97fps. There are 60 individual fields that are used to create 30 frames. 60i is the same as 29.97 interlaced. It was called 60i to distinguish between SD and HD video. No other reason.

Yes, this is correct.

You cannot deinterlace by converting upper and lower to a frame because each field is 1/60 of a second different in time. If you just mashed the fields together, any action would be blurred. A good deinterlacer will try to recreate a frame from the two fields with the least amout of action blur, thus it is synthesized.

The Interpolate fields option of the Vegas serves precisely for this purpose.

Musicvid wrote on 1/2/2019, 11:08 PM

Interpolate is the oldest and crudest deinterlace method available, just a step below Blend (although it can look sharper at a distance). It does not predictively shift lateral field motion to compensate for temporal movement between fields (this is so easy to test). Now that would take a long time, if the technology had been available in the 1990s. "Decombing" (mice teeth reduction) is integral to modern deinterlacing algorithms, which can take a long time (cue QTGMC, stage left).

Your strange statements may be confusing Jason. Maybe just kick back with a 'nog and a good book tonight?

 

Nick Hope wrote on 10/3/2016, 11:50 PM

How about a new "challenge" where we compare:

Vegas interpolate

Vegas smart adaptive

Handbrake decomb

QTGMC

Vegas Yadif plugin

Anything else

I've re-uploaded 10 seconds of Stringer's classic "Driving Along.MTS" clip at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21489814/Driving%20Along%2010secs.MTS