Chain of FX proper sequencing?

ram17 wrote on 3/6/2019, 6:28 AM

Are there any PROPER sequence/order when you make a chain of effects in the Vegas OFX window?

Or anyone can elaborate to me on how do they take effect sequentially?

Cause if you interchange/rumble the fx there's a noticeable changes especially when you monitor your videos with video scopes. So maybe you can teach me here on what am i doing.

For example in a clip with these simple effects in order

Channel Blend--Curves--BrightnessContrast--Sharpen

 

 

Comments

Grazie wrote on 3/6/2019, 7:16 AM

@ram17  - Woah.... This is an emmense subject. So emmense my Brain has jarred.

Zaither-P wrote on 3/6/2019, 8:45 AM

There's not really a "proper" order for plugins in a chain, however, arranging them in different ways can give you a very small to a very large difference in what the result is (depending on what plugins you're using, of course.)

Basically, you just gotta experiment with everything until you get an acceptable result.

Last changed by Zaither-P on 3/6/2019, 8:48 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Musicvid wrote on 3/6/2019, 9:27 AM

In Vegas Pro, your Scopes are your eyes.

There is a logical order, starting with what goes last.

  • The second and subsequent filters in a chain can reduce, exaggerate, or have no geometric effect on the previous filter, thus working backwards is a legitimate approach.
  • Avoid redundancies, the price being unnecessary bit depth destruction. Example: +10 / -5 on the same channel.
  • High-pass (sharpen) filters go last except for Video Levels. Reason: Blown Pixels are Blown Pixels; you don't get them back, they just multiply like snowflakes.
  • Low-cut and kernel filters (denoise, unsharp mask, matrix, median, etc.) are terribly slow and work best if applied to the native image, or first in the effects chain, and before any scaling.
  • Video Levels should go dead last, whether Computer RGB on the Preview, or Studio RGB on the Output (Render). Reason: Noise downstream affects Levels.
  • Look at the histogram for noise (slop) outside the grading range, then reverse the order to see if the noise is reduced, and how the effect looks different to you.
  • Keep your effects in range in 8-bit workspace, unless you like really long renders.
  • A simple, but not foolproof method for beginners is,
  • "Do the least amount of damage first, and keep the lid on the output."
fan-boy wrote on 3/6/2019, 3:15 PM

@ram17

Vegas F1 Help search "Video Signal Flow Diagram" , then study the 2 flow chart diagrams .

@Musicvid

I copied your Comment notes , to study .

Musicvid wrote on 3/6/2019, 3:29 PM

Well, they are off the top of my head, and open to refinements.

ram17 wrote on 3/6/2019, 4:40 PM

@Grazie well also my brain does, it's just i know how the fx work but i don't know how they work in their different positions/places.

ram17 wrote on 3/6/2019, 4:41 PM

Thank you guys for the answers especially to Musicvid, you enlighten me there.

Dimitrios wrote on 3/6/2019, 9:11 PM

Well I just assumed they take effect from left to right. There isn't always much of a difference if you rearrange them depending on the kinds of effects they are. But for instance if you use chroma key first, then use sphereize rearranging those two effects wont result in any difference. If if you use chroma key first, then use color corrector then rearrange those two effects there could be a profound difference in results.

Grazie wrote on 3/7/2019, 1:51 AM

Well I just assumed they take effect from left to right.

@Dimitrios - Me too ..

There isn't always much of a difference if you rearrange them depending on the kinds of effects they are.

@Dimitrios - Quite. And hereinafter lies the niceties not just in effect BUT, and here my brain cell gets nervous. What and how much struggling will VP do with the Math? Does anybody know? Does anybody care? I can’t imagine applying Channel Blend AND Curves in the same Chain, well I can imagine, I image stuff all the time, but but but what would be the Math-Overhead being employed?

@ram17 - So, reflecting on your use of the word “Proper” this could be broken down into

  1. Maths-Overhead: What makes VP pant, steam and brought to its Digital knees
  2. Get Real: Use of the Scopes to get evidenced-based results: Pips, Squeaks and Clips
  3. What’s the Outcome: You could try Sample and Render-Time Experimentation. I’ve learnt to progressively apply FXs if the outcome is frustratingly sluggish.

So, maybe “appropriate”, rather than “proper”. Personally, I enjoy viewing the Scopes whilst manipulating Channel Blend, “shuffling” them pixels from one channel to another, it’s great fun - but that’s me 😉.

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 5:51 AM

@Dimitrios @Grazie @Musicvid Its left to right, as one would expect, not right to left. See page 290 of the VP manual.

”Here, the Deform plug-in is applied before the pan/crop and the Glow and Color Curves plug-ins are applied after the pan/crop.”

See the screenshot on page 290 that’s immediately above this text extract from that page

 

Grazie wrote on 3/7/2019, 6:00 AM

@Dimitrios @Grazie @Musicvid Its left to right, as one would expect, not right to left.

@Former user Erm? We said that 😏

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 8:41 AM

@Grazie 

Erm?

“There is a logical order, starting with what goes last.”

“Well I just assumed they take effect from left to right.”

“Me too ..”

I'm not sure which part of the 1st. quote you don’t get, it infers right to left.

 

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 9:19 AM

Well I just assumed they take effect from left to right. 

That statement is correct.

I'm not sure which part of the 1st. quote you don’t get, it infers right to left.

That is a total fabrication; just one more deliberate misstatement of fact.

I assume one should already know the difference between order (from the bottom up), and and hierarchy (easily proven top-down). Otherwise, such nonsense could easily be seen as sabotage.

 

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 9:29 AM

Your statement infers right to left order of fx. Your statement is very clear, and unambiguous.

If you still believe thats the case then I guess you should ask Magix to update their incorrect pdf manual?

 

Update:

“Well I just assumed they take effect from left to right. 

That statement is correct.”

I see you’ve changed your mind, so now were all on the same page,.

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 9:39 AM

@Grazie

Thanks ya' had my back.

Grazie wrote on 3/7/2019, 9:58 AM

@Musicvid 🦍

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 10:08 AM

@Grazie

Thanks ya' had my back.

Loyalty is a very important human attribute. Misplaced loyalty not so much.

But hey, why let the facts get in the way.

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 10:42 AM

There is a logical order, starting with what goes last.

In this case, the "logical order" is not the same order that the effects were applied. It is their "order of importance."

High-pass (sharpen) filters go last except for Video Levels. Reason: Blown Pixels are Blown Pixels; you don't get them back, they just multiply like snowflakes.

If we take two common filters, "Sharpen" and "Levels," and switch their positions, it is easy to see which carries the greater importance. In this example, we want to clamp the signal levels at 16-235 for broadcast. The Computer->Studio RGB filter, last in the chain, accomplishes just that.

Next, leaving the filter settings the same, if we merely switch their positions, we see that the Sharpen filter on the right carries the greater weight. Unfortunately, we have now wrecked the output levels, meaning our little documentary will never make it past the local stations.

Video Levels should go dead last, whether Computer RGB on the Preview, or Studio RGB on the Output (Render). Reason: Noise downstream affects Levels.

Therefore, the logical order of filters, is with Sharpen first, and Levels last, going from left to right, if our goal is to preserve output levels.

All ambiguity intended, I hope this explanation makes it easier to understand the the rest of my statements.

 

Eagle Six wrote on 3/7/2019, 10:45 AM

In Vegas Pro, your Scopes are your eyes.

There is a logical order, starting with what goes last.

  • The second and subsequent filters in a chain can reduce, exaggerate, or have no geometric effect on the previous filter, thus working backwards is a legitimate approach.

If we are referring to @Musicvid statement "that what goes last", followed by "thus working backwards is a legitimate approach".....there is nothing in there that infers the FX chain works from right-to-left, in fact infers the opposite and correct left-to-right order. Seems easy to understand and makes sense to me.

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Grazie wrote on 3/7/2019, 11:00 AM

@Eagle Six - Yes. Scopes are our Friends.

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 12:11 PM

@Grazie @Eagle Six

Yes, youse are my friends.

So is @ram17, with profoundest apologies for the background noise.

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 12:19 PM

@Eagle Six With all due respect, given the significant elaborating that @Musicvid has done since his initial post, its now a little easier to assume that thats what he initially meant.

Last time I checked my logic circuits were in working order.

”Yes, youse are my friends” 😩

 

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 12:56 PM

Yes, exactly what I initially said is exactly what I initially meant.

Former user wrote on 3/7/2019, 1:10 PM

Really! Well, you believe it anyway.